Baking artisanal bread

Faroe

Un-spun
Found a good bread link.
Do a search for: The Fresh Loaf.

I took four pages of notes, and that was just on the tips section.

I have been baking bread regularly for a couple of years, and striving for that elusive European bakery taste and texture. I tried a couple changes to my routine on the last loaf two days ago, and it was much improved (expecpt that it burned and stuck on the bottom).

More baking today.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
When the Eastern Europeans (especially the Polish) began moving into Ireland a few years ago, their breads took off like a rocket here; Ireland really had no long tradition of yeast bread baking - soda breads were what the average family made, that ingredient having been invented about the same time that flour came down in price enough for people to use it at home. Bakeries always had some yeast bread and by the the 20th century people bought the usual sort of sliced, white or brown bread in supermarkets - the sort you think of as Wonder Bread in the US.

Polish bread was different, it was wonderful, and people started seeking out Polish bakeries and they started delivering to supermarkets even out here in the sticks; I knew what the secret was as I'd asked a Polish baker sometime around 2006 about it - it was using a sponge. All good European style breads that are savory start with an overnight sponge, and many use "wet yeast" which is pretty much a sour dough starter except you don't let it get as sour; it gets fed every day and/or just gets mixed with new flour every night with some kept back in a jar for the next night's sponge.

To Europeans, the "usual" American bread tastes like "cake" and they don't like it, my German house-mate only likes either European style savory loaves or bread truly intended as sweet bread with lots of sugar or honey aka the pre-soda version of what "sweet cake" was for most people in Europe.

I am delighted that my new Panisonic bread baker (that I never use to cook bread in unless its an emergency) has a proofing setting, which is totally new at least in terms of what I have seen in past UK/Irish bread bakers. People in the UK and Ireland are catching on to this, and it is changing bread baking both commercial and at home for the better.

If you don't have a starter or don't want to use one; you can get a similar affect by mixing the yeast, sugar (or other proofing sweetener) liquid for the bread and about 1/3 of the flour - mix, cover and set overnight in a warm but not hot place. Make bread in the morning or withing 12 to 24 hours.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
When the Eastern Europeans (especially the Polish) began moving into Ireland a few years ago, their breads took off like a rocket here; Ireland really had no long tradition of yeast bread baking - soda breads were what the average family made, that ingredient having been invented about the same time that flour came down in price enough for people to use it at home. Bakeries always had some yeast bread and by the the 20th century people bought the usual sort of sliced, white or brown bread in supermarkets - the sort you think of as Wonder Bread in the US.

Polish bread was different, it was wonderful, and people started seeking out Polish bakeries and they started delivering to supermarkets even out here in the sticks; I knew what the secret was as I'd asked a Polish baker sometime around 2006 about it - it was using a sponge. All good European style breads that are savory start with an overnight sponge, and many use "wet yeast" which is pretty much a sour dough starter except you don't let it get as sour; it gets fed every day and/or just gets mixed with new flour every night with some kept back in a jar for the next night's sponge.

To Europeans, the "usual" American bread tastes like "cake" and they don't like it, my German house-mate only likes either European style savory loaves or bread truly intended as sweet bread with lots of sugar or honey aka the pre-soda version of what "sweet cake" was for most people in Europe.

I am delighted that my new Panisonic bread baker (that I never use to cook bread in unless its an emergency) has a proofing setting, which is totally new at least in terms of what I have seen in past UK/Irish bread bakers. People in the UK and Ireland are catching on to this, and it is changing bread baking both commercial and at home for the better.

If you don't have a starter or don't want to use one; you can get a similar affect by mixing the yeast, sugar (or other proofing sweetener) liquid for the bread and about 1/3 of the flour - mix, cover and set overnight in a warm but not hot place. Make bread in the morning or withing 12 to 24 hours.

Interesting background on Irish bread. Thanks. I have an Irish cookbook I bought for twenty five cents, but haven't looked into it yet: Sharon O'Connor's Menus and Music The Irish Isle New Irish Cuisine Tradtional Irish Music.

The Fresh Loaf site gives multiple names for the sponge. One term is pre-ferment, and the other term is "poulish," (or something like that - I can't get it up on google. I'll look it up on the site.). May be a reference to Polish? ...don't know, haven't come across that term anywhere else.

I've always used my own starter, because yeast just seems like one more thing to buy. This particular site is quite specific about measurements. I have always just added "what seemed about right." Mainly, the doughs are much wetter than what I used to make. The site gives helpfull techniques on handling the stickier, wet, slack doughs. So far, I'm getting much better texture in the crumb, but I'd like to achieve a better crust. I baked yesterday's loaf on parchment in a stone dutch oven, on a baking stone (a two-dollar unglazed Mexican floor tile the BF was kind enough to pick up for me.) I also used a higher initial oven temp - 500F for preheat, and the first ten minutes of baking. I removed the Dutch oven cover for the last ten minutes.

I have always enjoyed reading cookbooks, and bread books, but I guess not much stuck. I have the Laurel's Kitchen bread book, but it just gets into too many variations on bread. That actually doesn't interest me much, and I've never done sweet breads or the types with milk and eggs. I've been baking based on what I've vaguely remembered from Peter Rhienhart's (spell) book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice (or close to that title). That was a borrowed library book from years back in El Paso, however. I also like the instructions at the back of Kiki Denzer's Build Your Own Earth Oven. He has just one recipe, one set of instructions, and one basic good traditional pre-fermented bread.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
My California to Ireland with Italian husband, Small-Holder friend has the Bread Bakers Apprentice and it is awesome, so is the King Arthur Bread book which she also has; I am thinking of breaking down and seeing if I can order them over from the US; expensive but probably worth it. She showed me a recipe from the Bread Baker's Apprentice that was a very basic, European style Italian bread with no kneading but to get the big holes and fermented taste, you keep punching it down by hand or with a dough scraper every half an hour or so for about 4 hours. You have to be home to do this, but the results are magical - what you are doing is over-rising the dough repeatedly but it doesn't go nasty sour because you are manipulating it frequently. The timing isn't exact and the recipe is very forgiving; I've made faster versions in two hours and longer ones in about eight - and I was actually using the dough cycle on my previous bread baker so the dough had been kneading in a normal fashion first, which you don't have to do, it was just easier for me that way.

I like all kinds of bread both sweet and savory but that Italian bread recipe finally was the winner that kept husband and German house-mate from constantly buying bread at the stop to get a real "Italian" or "French" like log-loaf. I've not worked out some variations that work well - one half butter milk and one half water also give a nice texture/taste (similar to whey) without the prolonged punch and pull but the loaves are larger (so I'm experimenting on the right amounts of dough to use). I also want to try with with home-ground whole wheat flour (half and half with the organic white) to see how that goes, but I have to get husband to help me grind it.

I really want to get away from the store bought loaf because I got such bad reactions in the US (acid reflux etc, finally vomiting all the usual stuff) until I started eating mostly organic when I hit Berkeley and boom all symptoms were gone. While I was there I saw the first article on the Monsanto spraying right before harvest to "dry" the wheat and my husband said my symptoms were exactly what you would expect with some sort of poisoning, especially the rapid recovery. No wonder the majority of people I baked bread for, for years in the US now find they are reacting to wheat...

Anyway, I have heard that a lot of the Canada wheat being imported for hard-bread flour here in Ireland (and the UK) is now being treated this way, I hadn't noticed because well I always order organic flour anywhere. But for this reason, I think it even more important than all the other usual reasons to bake as much of the bread as we can eat at home; I am still eating way too many commercial tortillas; partly because my shoulder makes rolling them out difficult and because I have yet to find a good freezing system for the home made ones but I'm working on it. I figure one thing at a time, I have made them, I know how to do them and they would be much better for us. Now that I have finally found a bread that everyone likes, along with the occasional changes that husband and I both like like good potato bread, rye bread, egg bread, bagels etc; I figure I can start working on the tortilla issue.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
My California to Ireland with Italian husband, Small-Holder friend has the Bread Bakers Apprentice and it is awesome, so is the King Arthur Bread book which she also has; I am thinking of breaking down and seeing if I can order them over from the US; expensive but probably worth it. She showed me a recipe from the Bread Baker's Apprentice that was a very basic, European style Italian bread with no kneading but to get the big holes and fermented taste, you keep punching it down by hand or with a dough scraper every half an hour or so for about 4 hours. You have to be home to do this, but the results are magical - what you are doing is over-rising the dough repeatedly but it doesn't go nasty sour because you are manipulating it frequently. The timing isn't exact and the recipe is very forgiving; I've made faster versions in two hours and longer ones in about eight - and I was actually using the dough cycle on my previous bread baker so the dough had been kneading in a normal fashion first, which you don't have to do, it was just easier for me that way.

I like all kinds of bread both sweet and savory but that Italian bread recipe finally was the winner that kept husband and German house-mate from constantly buying bread at the stop to get a real "Italian" or "French" like log-loaf. I've not worked out some variations that work well - one half butter milk and one half water also give a nice texture/taste (similar to whey) without the prolonged punch and pull but the loaves are larger (so I'm experimenting on the right amounts of dough to use). I also want to try with with home-ground whole wheat flour (half and half with the organic white) to see how that goes, but I have to get husband to help me grind it.

I really want to get away from the store bought loaf because I got such bad reactions in the US (acid reflux etc, finally vomiting all the usual stuff) until I started eating mostly organic when I hit Berkeley and boom all symptoms were gone. While I was there I saw the first article on the Monsanto spraying right before harvest to "dry" the wheat and my husband said my symptoms were exactly what you would expect with some sort of poisoning, especially the rapid recovery. No wonder the majority of people I baked bread for, for years in the US now find they are reacting to wheat...

Anyway, I have heard that a lot of the Canada wheat being imported for hard-bread flour here in Ireland (and the UK) is now being treated this way, I hadn't noticed because well I always order organic flour anywhere. But for this reason, I think it even more important than all the other usual reasons to bake as much of the bread as we can eat at home; I am still eating way too many commercial tortillas; partly because my shoulder makes rolling them out difficult and because I have yet to find a good freezing system for the home made ones but I'm working on it. I figure one thing at a time, I have made them, I know how to do them and they would be much better for us. Now that I have finally found a bread that everyone likes, along with the occasional changes that husband and I both like like good potato bread, rye bread, egg bread, bagels etc; I figure I can start working on the tortilla issue.

I absolutely love good homemade tortillas. We own an antique metate y mano for grinding, but now that I have the Country Living Mill set up, I'll probably use that in the future instead. I haven't been able to get a fine enough grind on the metate. It is very worn down, and the surface is probably too smooth. Also, the mano it came with is not a perfect fit for it. Tortillas are hard enough to get the knack of keeping together when using commercial Masa Harina. They are just about impossible if the corn hasn't been ground finely enough. Can't beat the flavor, however, esp. when the corn is cooked with wood ash first, as was traditional. It still amazes me that Mexican women actually made enough of these EVERY DAY to feed their families.

Makes bread baking seem like a snap.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
I LOVE the King Arthur flour baking books, including the bread book! But their website has a LOT of wonderful recipes on it, as well as tons of tips, etc. Not as handy as having the cookbook on your shelf, but a heck of a lot cheaper!

For my everyday bread baking (about once a week these days) I don't use a recipe... I toss in whatever needs to be used up (milk, sour cream, cream cheese, cottage cheese) add freshly ground whole wheat flour (usually from hard white winter wheat; all of mine has been stored for so long that it predates any stupid "burning down" by Roundup), white flour, 6 grain cereal, flax seed. Usually add some honey, or maple syrup from our trees. When the hens are laying, I always add half a dozen eggs. I start with a quart of liquid (including any eggs and honey/syrup) and 1 tablespoon of yeast, plus 1 tsp salt. Then I just add flour/dry ingredients until the texture is right.

You never have exactly the same loaf, but they're always good. The only time I use a recipe is for trying a new variety, or when making sandwich loaves in my pain de mie pans, or for rye bread. I've got a rye bread recipe which is incredibly good... the biggest problem is it's TOO good, and we can go through a loaf in a day!

Around here, a bowl of homemade soup and a couple slices of bread will REALLY fill you up.

Summerthyme
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Yep, my wheat that I want to use in the my Country Living will is from 1999 and 2006 or something, its fine and people think I'm joking when I saw it might last another thousand or two years if the climate and mice didn't get it; I plan to use it up before then. It is just without being able to get it electrified here (engineer house mate tried, we just couldn't get the parts) I don't use it nearly as much as I would like to.

I normally don't use a recipe either, it was just trying to find something people would eat rather than store bought bread; and I think I've just about cracked it. I also love reading recipes and trying new things, I'll more or less follow the first time but after that it is anything goes; with breads I sometimes make modifications from the start.

Just pulled two "midnight" Italian round loaves (they look like "country loaves" from Lidles) I really must start the new bread machine earlier in the day as the "French" cycle for dough takes nearly 4 hours, not a bad thing but then there's an hours rising so I need to start sooner.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
Two loaves later...

I finally followed a recipe. Look up this guy: Jacob Burton (spell?? ...can't quite read my handwritten notes) on YouTube. He is affiliated with Stellaculinary.com. He has a video on sourdough and another video for the levain. I used my own starter, but I made the rest of it mostly as given. The loaf came out dark, but not too dark (mine have always been light) and it measures just over 4" tall. It might have even risen higher, but the dough was pressing up against the lid of the Dutch oven after the instructed 20 min of baking at 500F. (The lid is at this point removed, and the temp lowered to 425F.) Impressive 'oven spring' - it didn't look all that promising when it went in.

Don't know what the crumb looks like. I'm waiting (as instructed) two hours before cutting.

I like this recipe. The video is VERY clear. I just took notes as he was talking, and had no problems making it. If anything, it is so clear, it takes all the mystery out of sourdough. I'll update when I get to taste it.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
Update

Good taste.

I would prefer slightly saltier. I made the previous loaf with sea salt, and that was quite good. I would also have prefered a slightly more open crumb. This recipe was for 70% hydration. It is probably worth working with a wetter dough for the more open crumb, even though wet doughs are formless and slippery to work with.

The crust was a big improvement over anything previous, and this loaf was also my highest rise.
 

pinkelsteinsmom

Veteran Member
I would love to know which bread machine you guys would recommend. My panasonic SD-YD250 just makes over cooked bricks now. I need to know is there a certain older bread machine that I might look for at thrift shops or new, if you know of a good one I would very much appreciate a recommendation.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
I would love to know which bread machine you guys would recommend. My panasonic SD-YD250 just makes over cooked bricks now. I need to know is there a certain older bread machine that I might look for at thrift shops or new, if you know of a good one I would very much appreciate a recommendation.

I had a pricey one from Williams Sonoma (IIRC thier brand name) about 15 years ago. It made bread convenient, but I didn't care much for it.

I have heard some say that their arthritis makes it hard to knead the bread. The breads I have been looking at recently, and the one in that Jacob Burton video, are not really kneeded. Preparing the gluten doesn NOT have to be an athletic event. "Streach and fold" is more along the line of what is done with many breads.

I'm just adding this, because I don't know the specific reason you want a machine. Those machines make bread I'll eat, but they don't make the bread I yearn for. I would give them points for convenience. Good luck in your search. You should definately be able to find a gently used one for next to nothing.
 
Last edited:

pinkelsteinsmom

Veteran Member
I had a pricey one from Williams Sonoma (IIRC thier brand name) about 15 years ago. It made bread convenient, but I didn't care much for it.

I have heard some say that their arthritis makes it hard to knead the bread. The breads I have been looking at recently, and the one in that Jacob Burton video, are not really kneeded. Preparing the gluten doesn NOT have to be an athletic event. "Streach and fold" is more along the line of what is done with many breads.

I'm just adding this, because I don't know the specific reason you want a machine. Those machines make bread I'll eat, but they don't make the bread I yearn for. I would give them points for convenience. Good luck in your search. You should definately be able to find a gently used one for next to nothing.

Thank you for your reply. yes I cannot kneed the bread. I bought a panasonic SD-YD250, it made about 5 loves and now all are nothing but over cooked bricks. I am thinking I should look for an older one at the thrift shops, if anyone can recommend an older brand like a certain Breadman that would be great.
 

spinner

Veteran Member
I no longer use a bread machine, but the Zojirushi is the best as far as I know. I have one that is put away for future use and right now I use my ancient Kitchenaid mixer. I had a Zo before this one and used it for so many years I would have to guess - probably 10 or 12 years, possibly more. It worked perfectly and actually would still be working, but the pan wore out and they discontinued production of the replacement pans because the model was so old.

I mostly used it to make dough which I baked in the oven. It was a great machine and the new one is, too. I just don't need it right now. They aren't cheap, but that is because they are so good and averaged out over the years they are less expensive than several cheaper, lower quality machines.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Huh... I was sure I responded to this earlier today. Must be losing it (don't comment! LOL!)

Anyway, if you can find a Zojirushi is the best out there. Mine is at least 10 years old and has been making great bread all that time. I did have to replace the "bucket" (pan) about 4 years ago, but it's been a real workhorse.

I actually use my Kitchenaid mixer more often than the bread machine, but when we're busy and I got behind on baking and we're out of bread, the machine is great- I've got my standard whole wheat/honey bread recipe memorized, and I can throw it together in the machine before bed and hubby has a fresh loaf of bread before chores the next morning.

Summerthyme
 
Top