Livestock Cattle breeding and bloodlines

SousJo

Contributing Member
I find the topic of cattle breeds and breeding interesting. Adding this or that trait, correcting this or that flaw.

Unfortunately, I'm too uneducated on this subject. I'm not even educated enough to be able to vet the information I seek to teach myself further. Some of this academic stuff sounds like pure pencil-necked BS by someone whose boot leather has never touched manure.

I need the expertise of people who know what they're doing, and I'm certain we have a few such here. If you have time, I would love to talk to you folks about cattle breeds and breeding. Tell me what I don't know, you have my rapt attention. I would very much appreciate it.
 

SousJo

Contributing Member
Are you kidding? Dexters are the exact breed I'd like to work with. Their possibilities and potential for the smallholder are tremendous. I can see why she picked them.

Welp. Let's hope she sees this and likes me enough to let me pick her brain.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
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Summerthyme is the resident expert in this, she and her DH bred dexters for 30 years.
Ayrshires for 40 years... Dexters for 25 (and counting)...

Why not ask here in the Homesteading forum. There are a few other folks here with cows, but most like to at least listen in. If we get into real specifics that get too boring, we can take it to PM

Summerthyme
 

SousJo

Contributing Member
I think we were both posting at the same time, but I'm understanding that was an invitation to ask questions.

Ooh, I'm that excited. You know about Dexters!

The bulldog trait, is that really just cosmetic?

The dairy qualities strike me as rubbish and hype. I've seen owners whose cows couldn't give enough milk to feed their own calf, let alone extra. What would the process look like to correct that - and I mean I don't even know where to start. Get a decent cow, weight daily dairy output, weigh and if necessary feed the calf I'm guessing. But then...?

And would it be best/more efficient to cross with a dairy breed (which?) or to concentrate on finding dairy Dexter lines and getting semen straws? This is probably a bad question, the answer seems subjective, but bear with me because I trust your judgment here.

Everything I can find says there's no way to get Wagyu genetics out of Japan. I'm pretty sure that's BS but I don't know enough about the semen market to get through what "everyone knows on the internet". Do you have more accurate information?

I am such a rookie, I must sound like an idiot and some of these are probably stupid questions. I'd appreciate anything you can do to help me improve that situation.
 

Marseydoats

Veteran Member
Don't waste your money on Wagyu. That's 90% hype. I know a lady who tried to raise them and she paid $3500 for her first cow and it was all downhill from there.
If you want really good quality meat, nothing beats a Jangus --- which is a Jersey/Angus cross.
Of course a lot of meat and milk quality will depend on your location.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
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There is no such thing as a stupid question (ok, except for the yuppies who would stop at our fair display and demand to know "what hormones" we injected into our cows to "make them milk"! I'd look at them, with a baby in a stroller and a toddler running around unsupervised and say, "gee, I dunno... what did you give your wife?")

And you're already on the right track, with a lot of common sense questions of so much of the internet hype.

First, NO...chondrodysplasia is NOT just cosmetic! It's a LETHAL recessive gene. I'm quite honestly appalled at the current fad of reintroducing control genes to get "small" ... more accurately described as short... animals. I suppose, with modern DNA testing, they think they can control the bad effects by not breeding carriers to carriers... but the cattle we started with who were chondro carriers lived shorter lifespans... they seemed very prone to crippling arthritis (and these were animals who spent the good months 100% on pasture, and winters being turned out in the daytime, and on rubber matted stalls at night). A solid, sound Dexter can live and reproduce into their 20s... we had to put our affected girls down around 16-18, because they couldn't walk without pain anymore.

This is such a special breed... because they were developed as a homestead cow (as opposed to an animal meant to survive on the open range), they have some quirks that must be understood. The biggest is sexual maturity! While the healthiest goal for any breed of cattle is to breed them at 14-15 months, to get their first calf at 2 years old, Dexter heifers can come in heat at 5 months, and I've seen a FOUR MONTH old bull calf wander over, breed a heifer in heat (not just the "sex play" all calves engage in, but actually penetrating) and then go back to mama for a drink of milk! It's nuts!

This means you can't just turn your cows, calves and bull out together year round, because you WILL end up with pregnant babies, who are simply not ready to have a calf of their own.

We had two... one because we didn't realize a crippled calf (hubby dropped a round bale on her when her mother had tucked her into the hay ring for warmth... she had a permanently dislocated shoulder, and got around on 3 legs forever after) had actually come into heat. When she was about 12 months, I didn't like the way she looked and brought her in for some grain and babying. I quickly realized the problem when I could bump a big calf (around 7 months)... BIG problem!

We knew the worst thing we could do was try to feed her for weight gain... at that stage, everything goes into the calf. So we kept her on a high protein, moderate energy diet, and 6 weeks later she calved with a slightly premature (the teeth weren't through but it was fully haired) 22# bull calf, who did just fine.

The second one was after we'd started giving Lutalyse to every heifer calf in the fall... not having any practical way to keep heifer calves away from their mothers while the bull was with them, it was the only way to prevent it... Lutalyse is a hormone that dislodges the corpus luteum from the ovary, ending the pregnancy.

Except when -in extremely rare cases- it doesnt! Whoops! Another 25# heifer calf! We gave her to our hired hand to bottle feed, because her 12 month old mother didn't produce milk. We rebred the cow (heifer) at 14 months, and she called normally from then on, making plenty of milk for her calves.

I have no idea about Waygu beef, except to say that the management is likely even more important than genetics. And I'm not locking my cows up, feeding them tons of high carb grain and giving them deep tissue massages daily!

Dexters for milk... most will make enough for their calf and you, especially after the first year. To do so may require some grain feeding, especially if you don't have high quality rotational pastures. The best way to save on purchased grain for any type of cattle is to learn to rotate pastures! Turning them out on the whole acreage in spring and leaving them there until fall (or until they start breaking out looking for food!) is a terrible waste of resources. I won't discuss it any further now except to say its easy... but not simple!

However, most Dexters over the past decades haven't been milked, and a good percentage simply won't adapt. We had a nice heifer (she was the longer legged "Kerry" type, which supposedly are the milk type in the breed) calve 5 weeks early with a stillborn calf. The milk price at the time was at record highs, and we had an empty stall in the barn with the Ayrshires. We tried EVERYTHING. Fed her grain, gave her oxytocin to get her to let down... we never got more than a cup of milk, but she gained over 50# in a month!

But the 1/2 Jersey 1/2 Dexter was the best family cow ever! She fed her calf so it grew twice as fast as most, and gave us at least 2 gallons a day (on once a day milking) of super rich milk. I used to get a pint of heavy cream off every gallon... she was testing around 8% butterfat! I still miss her!

We have her daughter, by a Dexter bull. Due to our move, we've never milked her, but will be when she has her third calf this May. That could get interesting! But she's a sweetheart , so I'm not too worried.

Dexter Jersey crosses also make fabulous beef... the ones we've had were marbled better than the pure Dexters, but that may be at least partly a function of needing to keep them longer... one set of full brothers ended up being butchered at the same time... because the older one kept growing, and growing... By the time he slowed down and started to fill out, his younger brother was a foot shorter and already finishing nicely. Crosses are always a crapshoot. They hung at 380# and 620#... the best beef we've had.

I'll stop here, so I don't bore you to death. I'll have to find some pics on the computer and post them... we kept two purebred cows and a bull... sold the bull to a neighbor who let's us borrow him back for a month every spring! The one dun cow was one that everyone wanted us to sell in our dispersal... several top breeders agreed with me that she is as close to the perfect Dexter as you'll get. But I wasn't ready to let her go, so she's here, and we listen to our son bitch about how much he hates cows every spring when they muddy up the waste pasture we keep them in over the winter!

Summerthyme
 
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SousJo

Contributing Member
We knew the worst thing we could do was try to feed her for weight gain... at that stage, everything goes into the calf.
That's a valuable nugget of information. Makes perfect sense now you've said so - would never have occurred to me otherwise until after getting it wrong. And then there'd be a big well-nourished calf inside a too-young heifer, we'd be lucky to not lose them both.

I'm still reading, this is a gold mine. Going to print it off and read it again just to be sure I got it all. Will leave more thorough comments this evening, after supper.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
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That's a valuable nugget of information. Makes perfect sense now you've said so - would never have occurred to me otherwise until after getting it wrong. And then there'd be a big well-nourished calf inside a too-young heifer, we'd be lucky to not lose them both.

I'm still reading, this is a gold mine. Going to print it off and read it again just to be sure I got it all. Will leave more thorough comments this evening, after supper.
Yeah, it's a common mistake, even in people who should know better. Several of my Amish clients would buy skinny, pregnant "bargain" cows and then bring them home and feed them up... almost always the result was a skinny cow trying to have a fat, oversized calf. It usually didn't end well!

Summerthyme
 

SousJo

Contributing Member
the yuppies who would stop at our fair display and demand to know "what hormones" we injected into our cows to "make them milk"! I'd look at them, with a baby in a stroller and a toddler running around unsupervised and say, "gee, I dunno... what did you give your wife?")
LOL! My grandmother offered a gal fresh eggs, and the lady was horrified. "Out of a chicken's butt?!"

No, ma'am, we got some of them special rocks that give the same eggs they got in the stores. Turn 'em over every morning.

Lol, bless their hearts.

I have no idea about Waygu beef, except to say that the management is likely even more important than genetics.
Don't waste your money on Wagyu. That's 90% hype. I know a lady who tried to raise them and she paid $3500 for her first cow and it was all downhill from there.
If you want really good quality meat, nothing beats a Jangus --- which is a Jersey/Angus cross.
Really? I'm disappointed.

See, a Dexter cross is probably my end goal here. I've liked the idea of improving the finished carcass quality with Angus and Wagyu (if it could be gotten) in a mostly Dexter lineage, with a reliable dairy production for the smallholder. I define that as a cow that can feed her own calf well with a quart or two excess daily. It's not a commercial amount, but one can't have everything and if I must sacrifice a trait it'd be gallons of milk excess per day. Holsteins already exist.

Efficient growth, small but healthy, a good finished carcass, and a stable, adequate dairy output.

I'm not committed to any breed beyond the Dexters. I had high hopes for the Wagyu carcass type, but if it's not sensible then there's other ways to skin a cat. I'm glad Marseydoats reports success with Angus/Dexter crosses, that gives me a lot to work with actually.

And Summerthyme had a lot of good to say about Jersey/Dexter crosses. All in all, it's sounding as if a careful program - Angus-Dexter-Dexter-Jersey-Dexter-Dexter, assess, repeat (??? like that?) could get us to where I'd like over time.

Summertime, that is some crazy sexual maturity. It's like cats! I was thinking, tell me what you think of this, I was considering not having a bull at first. A bull is half the herd, and I was hoping semen straws and a vet could fit the bill. You already know the pros and cons to either, what are your thoughts?

I'll stop here, so I don't bore you to death.
Don't you dare, I'll give you any recipe you want. I keep running across *chirpy sparkly Geocities font* breeders, when I need to hear from cow people.

Thank you very much, y'all have already cut my learning curve a great deal with just a post. This was the most useful stuff on cows I've read in ages.
 

Marseydoats

Veteran Member
LOL! My grandmother offered a gal fresh eggs, and the lady was horrified. "Out of a chicken's butt?!"

No, ma'am, we got some of them special rocks that give the same eggs they got in the stores. Turn 'em over every morning.

Lol, bless their hearts.



Really? I'm disappointed.

See, a Dexter cross is probably my end goal here. I've liked the idea of improving the finished carcass quality with Angus and Wagyu (if it could be gotten) in a mostly Dexter lineage, with a reliable dairy production for the smallholder. I define that as a cow that can feed her own calf well with a quart or two excess daily. It's not a commercial amount, but one can't have everything and if I must sacrifice a trait it'd be gallons of milk excess per day. Holsteins already exist.

Efficient growth, small but healthy, a good finished carcass, and a stable, adequate dairy output.

I'm not committed to any breed beyond the Dexters. I had high hopes for the Wagyu carcass type, but if it's not sensible then there's other ways to skin a cat. I'm glad Marseydoats reports success with Angus/Dexter crosses, that gives me a lot to work with actually.

And Summerthyme had a lot of good to say about Jersey/Dexter crosses. All in all, it's sounding as if a careful program - Angus-Dexter-Dexter-Jersey-Dexter-Dexter, assess, repeat (??? like that?) could get us to where I'd like over time.

Summertime, that is some crazy sexual maturity. It's like cats! I was thinking, tell me what you think of this, I was considering not having a bull at first. A bull is half the herd, and I was hoping semen straws and a vet could fit the bill. You already know the pros and cons to either, what are your thoughts?


Don't you dare, I'll give you any recipe you want. I keep running across *chirpy sparkly Geocities font* breeders, when I need to hear from cow people.

Thank you very much, y'all have already cut my learning curve a great deal with just a post. This was the most useful stuff on cows I've read in ages.

Sorry, no -- I said Angus/Jersey crosses. I know nothing at all about Dexters. Nobody where I live has them, I don't know that they would be big enough to defend themselves against the coyotes and dog packs we have here.
I think a Wagyu would be too big to breed with a Dexter --- the few I've seen in person were huge.
Bulls are dangerous and you don't want one unless you've got some cowboys with good rope horses to handle them when they get ornery.
Depending on where you live, it can be next to impossible to find someone to AI. None of the large animal vets here work with cattle anymore. The closest AI tech is 75 miles away and over half of what I pay him is mileage. You can learn to do your own, but then you'd need a nitrogen tank and other supplies.
Not trying to be discouraging.
Good luck!
 

John Deere Girl

Veteran Member
I'm a big fan of Jersey cows, we raised them for years, and they are like big puppies. Enough milk so it's not overwhelming, and so much cream to make anything dairy! I bet the Jersey/Dexter crosses would be pretty awesome though!
 

SousJo

Contributing Member
Marseydoats, you're right, I did indeed read your first post wrong. My apologies on that. And I did NOT know it's that hard to find a large animal vet to do inseminations.

Hrrmmmm. Going to need to think this through with all the new info. On the bright side, now I don't have to find this out the hard way.

JDG, yeah, I'm really sold on a Jersey cross the more y'all talk. It would solve a lot of trouble with dairy and Dexters too.
 

John Deere Girl

Veteran Member
Marseydoats, you're right, I did indeed read your first post wrong. My apologies on that. And I did NOT know it's that hard to find a large animal vet to do inseminations.

Hrrmmmm. Going to need to think this through with all the new info. On the bright side, now I don't have to find this out the hard way.

JDG, yeah, I'm really sold on a Jersey cross the more y'all talk. It would solve a lot of trouble with dairy and Dexters too.
I think AI just depends on where you live. In our area we have several people who are available to do AI, and we have a variety to choose from. We've used bulls several times, but I'd rather not if at all possible.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
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I'm going to copy a note I sent to SousJo via PM earlier...

One thing I was going to say about Dexters... their bulls are rarely dangerous. Not that you don't treat them with respect, but we sold a 5 year old bull we could still lead around by the neck chain...even if there was a cow in heat!

One idea... while we did AI our Dexters, as hubby was a professional AI technician for about 10 years, semen costs are getting ridiculous in the breed, and there simply is no beating a good bull for conception rates. BB King, the bull I mentioned above, was born in September. When he was 8 months old, he got 7 cows pregnant within 2 weeks! The next spring, he got the entire herd pregnant, again within 3 weeks. He had 100% conception 3 years in a row!

We currently are using a 4 year old bull we bought as a yearling, and then sold to a neighbor near our new place once our three cows were pregnant. We borrow him in the Spring, then return him after a month. It has worked out really well.

But what I suggest to people who only have a few (or one!) cows... it can be really hard to get a single animal bred, as finding them in standing heat is tricky, is this...

Buy a weanling bull calf. Well bred, if at all possible, but at least good conformation and disposition. Use him for 2 years on your animals... or even longer, if he doesn't sire a heifer who can't be bred to him. Then, either sell him as a proven sire, or castrate him (banding or an emasculator work well, but make sure you give tetanus vaccine 10 days before!) and finish him for beef.

If you getva reasonable price on the bull calf, you can pretty well breed your cows for the cost of feeding him. And if you out him in your freezer, even that is (somewhat) covered.

If you buy a weanling in the fall. He can breed cows the following Spring, and you could even castrate him after his first season, and finish him for that fall. We hung 2 steers last fall... 16 months and 18 months. They weighed (hanging) 320# and 330#. We do feed some cornmeal for a couple months at the end, to get good marbling and "finish". Most people who claim they want grass fed and finished beef have never actually eaten any!

A cool story about a Dexter bull...

An internet friend from pre Y2k had a 10 year old Dexter bull he'd owned from babyhood. He also had a huge, 4 year old Charolais bull, which had a mean streak. One day, the Charolais blindsided him while he was latching the gate, breaking several ribs. He was on the ground, trying to catch his breath and get to a place he could roll under the fence, knowing if the bull caught him he was going to die. The bull charged him again, and he still wasn't able to get away. Just before it reached him... suddenly it was gone.

His Dexter bull had come running, hit the huge Charolais (easily twice the size and weight as the Dexter), solidly in the ribs and knocked him a good ten feet away from the rancher. The little bull then stepped carefully over him and stood over him, guarding and protecting him until he was able to gather his strength and crawl far enough to roll under the fence. The Dexter stayed between him and the big bull every step of the way.

As far as coyotes... not a problem. The calves definitely can very vulnerable... they weigh between 25# and 50#... the biggest we ever had weighed 66#, and he looked HUGE. (Which was funny, because we had some Ayrshire calves that hit 137#!) But the cows are super protective.

We had some with horns, although we dehorned all our calves after the first few years.(I was gored in the thigh, missing my femoral artery by 1/2", by a crazy Dexter cow we called the Anarchist. And I once had to stitch a cow up who had been given... quite literally... a second vulva and anus by a horn! Nasty!)

But early on, while we were building a new barn, we outwintered some Ayrshire yearlings. They started being hunted and hassled by a pack of wild dogs... a couple big German Shepherds and 4 or 5 other mutts. No one knew where they came from, and they were like ghosts... almost impossible to get a shot at them. One night, they ran the entire herd of 12 yearlings through a brand new 5 bar gate... turned it into a pretzel.

We pulled them in, and put the 8 Dexters out. Three days later, we went out to check on them, and there were dog tracks everywhere. As well as several large puddles of blood. Worried, we tracked the cows down in the woods... not a mark on any of them! One had blood on her horns. We never saw the dogs again!

Also, our Amish hired hand decided to walk through our fields one evening, hunting woodchucks on his way home. He was crossing the pasture when the Dexters (who had several small calves) noticed him. They immediately formed a group, with the babies in the center, then charged him. He had to shoot into the ground ahead of them to stop them! Apparently, they didn't recognize him in the late afternoon light, because they should have known him! Let's just say, we don't worry much about rustlers..restless...

Summerthyme
 
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Luddite

Veteran Member
I have a friend that just bought me some wagyu straws (frozen semen).

I haven’t seen the bill, probably about $30 per straw which is roughly 3 times what "normal" straws would cost.

Granted, some hype may be marketing.

I know the "bearded butchers" on youtube did a contrast of true Japanese wgyu versus "American Wagyu". You can visually see the difference.

Having someone that can Artificially Inseminate can save you huge costs over time.

I will admit, the process is NOT conducive to an idyllic farm scene. Fwiw...

Eta: we eat lots of hamburger and cube steak. We have been using a bull twice then sending him to freezer camp. I still keep the filet mignon, even if the bull is 4 or 5 years old.
 
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