KateCanada
Inactive
Not the economy, security,war, jobs, health care! Moral values topped the voters list of importance. What a wake up call this should be to politicians everywhere! 
Moral Values issue won the election for Bush! Wow
- Thread starter KateCanada
- Start date
KateCanada
Inactive
The media does'nt even know how to handle this. lol
Clinton must have really freaked out people!
Clinton must have really freaked out people!
Yes, it's the biggest PR success in history. They are laughing about it now in the WH.
Millions of people hoodwinked, hook line and sinker, on issues that the President doesn't control or can't do anything about or are already Constitutionally protected. He can't legislate morality, can't save God, can't protect anybody's family from gays beating down anybody's door trying to convert good Christians, or insure anybody's right to read the Bible... In fact, he can't legislate anything - that's not his job, he just gets to veto (and of course, as Com-in-Chief he can send US soldiers die, and to kill hundreds of thousands of people - now that's real morality).
And yet, millions of people voted for him on this basis (and for other irrational reasons apparently), and ignored the crisis of escalating national debt, little of which is actually going back to Americans, relaxing of environmental restrictions, corporate tax breaks of $136 BBBillion without any plan for funding (TBD later), bumper drug crop harvests in Afghanistan (exit strategy? not sure if there's a plan yet), lots-o-problems in Iraq (exit strategy? not sure if theres a plan yet), and on and on....
Fortunately, when all this SHTF, then at least GWB will be there on the receiving end. Can't wait to see that. Stay the course!!!
Millions of people hoodwinked, hook line and sinker, on issues that the President doesn't control or can't do anything about or are already Constitutionally protected. He can't legislate morality, can't save God, can't protect anybody's family from gays beating down anybody's door trying to convert good Christians, or insure anybody's right to read the Bible... In fact, he can't legislate anything - that's not his job, he just gets to veto (and of course, as Com-in-Chief he can send US soldiers die, and to kill hundreds of thousands of people - now that's real morality).
And yet, millions of people voted for him on this basis (and for other irrational reasons apparently), and ignored the crisis of escalating national debt, little of which is actually going back to Americans, relaxing of environmental restrictions, corporate tax breaks of $136 BBBillion without any plan for funding (TBD later), bumper drug crop harvests in Afghanistan (exit strategy? not sure if there's a plan yet), lots-o-problems in Iraq (exit strategy? not sure if theres a plan yet), and on and on....
Fortunately, when all this SHTF, then at least GWB will be there on the receiving end. Can't wait to see that. Stay the course!!!
freebyrd
Membership Revoked
c'mon f drew, you know we now live in the era of form over substance,
most of the conservatives are now effectively neutralized they are back to being seduced by the siren call of the neocon sleepwalk,
all the things bush will do, the very same things that they would have villified kerry for doing, will now be called patriotic and wholesome and good,
this political cult of personality and its partisan cheerleaders, and i have actually seen them post on here reference's to their party such as "go team" this is what has destroyed our once mighty republic,
freebyrd
most of the conservatives are now effectively neutralized they are back to being seduced by the siren call of the neocon sleepwalk,
all the things bush will do, the very same things that they would have villified kerry for doing, will now be called patriotic and wholesome and good,
this political cult of personality and its partisan cheerleaders, and i have actually seen them post on here reference's to their party such as "go team" this is what has destroyed our once mighty republic,
freebyrd
Morals!! Spare me.
You can’t march for anti-abortion and drop bombs on innocent people. How do you justify the ‘collateral damage’ that kills pregnant women in one breath and claim to be a ‘christian’ in the next and against abortion. Christ was non-violent. Get it, he didn’t kill anyone. There’s a conflict of interests in your thinking.
You want to go to war and kill people then tell two people of the same sex who love each other that ‘christianity’ says they can’t? Nonsense, misguided social morality.
Spare us the pseudo-christian nonsense and keep it out of my government. I’ll let God judge my morality not any political systems, thank you. Political systems are for wars and taxes not regulating morality. It’s called ‘Church and State’.
You can’t march for anti-abortion and drop bombs on innocent people. How do you justify the ‘collateral damage’ that kills pregnant women in one breath and claim to be a ‘christian’ in the next and against abortion. Christ was non-violent. Get it, he didn’t kill anyone. There’s a conflict of interests in your thinking.
You want to go to war and kill people then tell two people of the same sex who love each other that ‘christianity’ says they can’t? Nonsense, misguided social morality.
Spare us the pseudo-christian nonsense and keep it out of my government. I’ll let God judge my morality not any political systems, thank you. Political systems are for wars and taxes not regulating morality. It’s called ‘Church and State’.
Well there one thing that can make the dems feel better. After the reps have said
how much they we're going to clean things up in washington, if they don't they can't hide it .You won't have to say a word. If its not done right this time I thing washington should be moved where we can find it.
how much they we're going to clean things up in washington, if they don't they can't hide it .You won't have to say a word. If its not done right this time I thing washington should be moved where we can find it.
ainitfunny
Saved, to glorify God.
When it comes to morality, what a choice we had.
The democrats asked us to drink from their turd infested fountain with dead babies floating in, and sodomists cavorting in their polluted water.
The republicans in contrast, asked us to strengthen and refresh ourselves from their unholy fountain of blood of collateral damage victims and American boys sent to die for a lie, that we might share their damnation.
The democrats asked us to drink from their turd infested fountain with dead babies floating in, and sodomists cavorting in their polluted water.
The republicans in contrast, asked us to strengthen and refresh ourselves from their unholy fountain of blood of collateral damage victims and American boys sent to die for a lie, that we might share their damnation.
Originally posted by FDrew:
"In fact, he can't legislate anything - that's not his job, he just gets to veto..."
__________________________
The American people did not just vote for GW....They voted in enough Republicans to control the Congress. Together they CAN create laws to protect the unborn, define marriage as one man/woman...etc. The question is if those laws would subsequently be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Depending on how many of those justices leave the bench and are replaced by BUSH APPOINTEES, may indeed sway the High Courts opinions and result in reversals of things such as Roe v Wade (among other things).
What has been done by the liberals CAN be undone by the conservatives. Maybe that is EXACTLY why the MAJORITY of Americans voted Republican.....
Jaded
"In fact, he can't legislate anything - that's not his job, he just gets to veto..."
__________________________
The American people did not just vote for GW....They voted in enough Republicans to control the Congress. Together they CAN create laws to protect the unborn, define marriage as one man/woman...etc. The question is if those laws would subsequently be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Depending on how many of those justices leave the bench and are replaced by BUSH APPOINTEES, may indeed sway the High Courts opinions and result in reversals of things such as Roe v Wade (among other things).
What has been done by the liberals CAN be undone by the conservatives. Maybe that is EXACTLY why the MAJORITY of Americans voted Republican.....
Jaded
There has been a Republican majority in Congress for the last four years and no change in the abortion issue. It's not going to happen. The partial birth abortion ban was also nothing to get excited about since it can be challenged in the courts. Yes, most of the Christians have been hoodwinked in a major way. If Christians really wanted to get rid of abortion, the Constitution Party was the only party that I know that vowed to work towards that goal. However, the Christian Coalition wouldn't even allow the Constitution Party in their voter guides, so most Christians proabably didn't even know that they had an alternative to Bush.
Judge Blocks Partial-Birth Abortion Ban
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
SAN FRANCISCO — A federal judge Tuesday ruled that President Bush's Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (search) is unconstitutional and infringes on a woman's right to choose.
The ruling applies to the nation's 900 or so Planned Parenthood clinics and their doctors, who perform roughly half of all abortions in the United States
Rest of story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121435,00.html
Judge Blocks Partial-Birth Abortion Ban
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
SAN FRANCISCO — A federal judge Tuesday ruled that President Bush's Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (search) is unconstitutional and infringes on a woman's right to choose.
The ruling applies to the nation's 900 or so Planned Parenthood clinics and their doctors, who perform roughly half of all abortions in the United States
Rest of story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121435,00.html
Jaded said:
This myopic pseudo-christian purity nonsense. “One man- one woman”. Mean while we drop bombs on people. Like I’ve said before these people are going to split in half marching with one foot in one direction to stop abortion and the other foot in the opposite direction towards war. How do you justify your position, you’re a contradiction unto yourselves. Christ was non-violent. He didn’t kill anyone and neither did his apostles.
You want to define marriage as one man one woman. That’s arrogant to expect others to live by your religious convictions. It’s called freedom of religion and it’s a right in this country. So keep your socialized-christianity out of the government. How terribly childish to think you have the truth for everyone. That’s your distortion and your ego.
.
peachfuzz
fuzzy member
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=224618&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
In the above link it is mentioned:
In a dozen swing states that decided the presidential election, moral values tied with the economy and jobs as the top issue in the campaign, according to Associated Press exit polls. Terrorism was close behind.
In the above link it is mentioned:
In a dozen swing states that decided the presidential election, moral values tied with the economy and jobs as the top issue in the campaign, according to Associated Press exit polls. Terrorism was close behind.
Tristan
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Kate, it's almost funny how the commentators are trying to deal with that fact. They just cannot seem to address it directly, that morals/values actually matter to the population at large, even after about 40 years of indoctrination in the "values-neutral" and "if it feels good, do it more" philosophy of life we've been saturated with from the major media.
fairbanksb
Freedom Isn't Free
I just love the Christian bashing going on in this thread. What a bunch of whiners. You lost, get over it. You Christian bashers just can't stand anybody with definate beliefs of right or wrong. You can believe what you want but we're not allowed too without being called names. You can spread your filth throughout the culture, on tv and in the media and in the laws, but we have to shut up and stay inside the churches.
fruit loop
Inactive
Uh, Fairbanks....
....I think the majority of members on this board are Christians. We have atheists, we have pagans, we have agnostics.....but most of us are Christians.
Don't assume that because somebody here doesn't share your politics or your particular beliefs that we aren't Christian. Christians are a contentious bunch and we disagree on a lot of issues.
As a Christian, I find it hilarious when other Christians whine about how discriminated against they are. Yeah, right. We do our own share of discriminating, and although Christian-discrimination does happen, it's EXCEEDINGLY rare.
Or do you just have a persecution complex? Lots of Christians have those too
....I think the majority of members on this board are Christians. We have atheists, we have pagans, we have agnostics.....but most of us are Christians.
Don't assume that because somebody here doesn't share your politics or your particular beliefs that we aren't Christian. Christians are a contentious bunch and we disagree on a lot of issues.
As a Christian, I find it hilarious when other Christians whine about how discriminated against they are. Yeah, right. We do our own share of discriminating, and although Christian-discrimination does happen, it's EXCEEDINGLY rare.
Or do you just have a persecution complex? Lots of Christians have those too
fairbanksb
Freedom Isn't Free
fruit loop said:
I was speaking to specific comments in the thread. It has already been reported that the election was won because people who were voting on morals and values came out to vote. Now some want to call people hoodwinked as being okay with dropping bombs on people but against two men who want to do it doggie style.
If you voted for Kerry that is fine but more people voted for Bush. Maybe, just maybe the Democrats are the ones who need to adust their thinking. Not the people who voted in the majority.fairbanksb said:
You’re missing the point. It’s not morality when you are pro war and anti-abortion regardless of what religion you claim to be. War invariably kills innocent people including pregnant women. It’s called ‘collateral damage’. Bush, Kerry and every other politician knows about it and accepts it when they go into war.
So how do you justify one action as moral and the other as not? You either refuse to accept all killing or none. You can’t say it is acceptable to kill a pregnant woman because of an action you support (war) and then march for anti-abortion. There is no middle road, you can not expect your subjective perceptions of God or morality to be universally accepted. Again, it’s called freedom of religion and you can’t declare your subjective opinion as moral for others unless you are ready to have their subjective opinion establish morality for you.
When we jump up and down about morality then we better be able to defend it universally, your morality is in collision with itself so how do you justify it?
.
Tweakette
Irrelevant
22% of the voters said that "moral issues" was their primary concern. But that means that for 78% it wasn't. Yes, it was first out of all the individual categories specified but still for more people it wasn't moral issues than it was. This is getting lost in the media trying to intepret the results of the election and all the far-right spin.
And "Terrorism" and "Iraq" were split into 2 choices. Added together, as I remember the sum would've been something like 35 or 39%, which would have been appropriate since most people lump the 2 together. If more of a catchall category such as "National Security" had been used you would've seen that as the primary concern, not "moral issues".
Statistics can be used to prove whatever you want, for good or for ill.
Tweak
And "Terrorism" and "Iraq" were split into 2 choices. Added together, as I remember the sum would've been something like 35 or 39%, which would have been appropriate since most people lump the 2 together. If more of a catchall category such as "National Security" had been used you would've seen that as the primary concern, not "moral issues".
Statistics can be used to prove whatever you want, for good or for ill.
Tweak
fairbanksb
Freedom Isn't Free
Rob said:
You're skirting the issue.
The issue is morality or more accurately ethics. The thread claims that the people voted to reestablish morality. So what is this morality they feel is being established through GWB?
How can you support killing of any kind (Afghanistan) and claim to be moral?
Is killing moral?
What is it to be moral then?
The issue is morality or more accurately ethics. The thread claims that the people voted to reestablish morality. So what is this morality they feel is being established through GWB?
How can you support killing of any kind (Afghanistan) and claim to be moral?
Is killing moral?
What is it to be moral then?
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fairbanksb
Freedom Isn't Free
Rob said:
Are you a Christian? None of my business but I am. If you are a Christian is GOD immoral for killing the Egytian army in the Red Sea? He certainly killed a few Israelites for not following his laws. Is he immoral? You consider it immoral for attacking Afghanistan and the Taliban for killing over 3,000 of your fellow citizens? I don't expect Bush to establish morality. But I don't expect him to sanction or try to mainstream what I consider immorality. I felt that Kerry would have, if elected. I am not certain that he would have, but I wasn't willing to take that chance.
fruit loop
Inactive
Ever notice....
People say they're "pro life" and anti-abortion but favor killing in war AND the death penalty?
Not all Christians are against abortion. Some, like me, don't like it but view it as the lesser of two evils, or think it's a matter for individual conscience. Others don't believe it's murder because they think the soul enters the body at birth and until then the fetus is not a separate entity from the mother.
Christians only agree on one thing....God exists.
People say they're "pro life" and anti-abortion but favor killing in war AND the death penalty?
Not all Christians are against abortion. Some, like me, don't like it but view it as the lesser of two evils, or think it's a matter for individual conscience. Others don't believe it's murder because they think the soul enters the body at birth and until then the fetus is not a separate entity from the mother.
Christians only agree on one thing....God exists.
fairbanksb said:
You’re right, it’s not your business.
<B>If you are a Christian is GOD immoral for killing the Egytian army in the Red Sea? He certainly killed a few Israelites for not following his laws. Is he immoral?</B>
You want to establish your morality by a book? By what you believe God did?
First you’re not God, second I have serious issues with the validity of the incidents and third there is someone on the other side of the world with a book that he is attempting to justify his actions on that contradict yours. So who should I believe you with your book or him with his book? What if you were born on the other side of the planet would you be justifying your morality with his book?
What do you want to do stand before God and say,” I read this book that said you killed thousands of people so I thought it was ok for me to do it too.”
<B>You consider it immoral for attacking Afghanistan and the Taliban for killing over 3,000 of your fellow citizens?</B>
Now we’re talking about nationalism. What do you want to do now justify your morality based on geography? I killed because I’m an American. So if you had been born an Arab you would be justified in saying, “I killed because I am an Arab.” What do you think that God categorizes people by nationality? I thought the Christian concept was that your reward was in ‘heaven’ and not on this earth and that Christ came to clarify the word of God. So what are you doing being nationalistic at all? What are you doing supporting war at all? Did Christ pick up a stick and go warring? So why are you?
<B>I don't expect Bush to establish morality. But I don't expect him to sanction or try to mainstream what I consider immorality. I felt that Kerry would have, if elected. I am not certain that he would have, but I wasn't willing to take that chance.</B>
Again, you’re using the word “immorality”. So what is immorality? I think it’s killing but apparently you don’t.
You’re still faced with a dilemma you have not answered. You support a war that you know through ‘collateral damage’ has killed pregnant women. How do you march against abortion?
I’m not the one saying moral issues determined this election. So maybe some of you might want to sit down and figure out what it is to be moral because I don’t see any indications of morality on this thread.
.
KateCanada
Inactive
I'm kinda laughin right now at people that have never read a bible. AN ELECTION WAS WON BECAUSE THE EXTRA VOTERS THAT CAME THROUGH ARE BIBLE READING FOLKS!!!! Even if you don't care, don't believe, you should read the thing that influences your countries elections. Read it, it will explain why they relate to GW and NOT John Kerry. It's really that simple. You may not believe what some believe, but, you will understand theirs beliefs and what motivates them.
1) A Christian believes in GOD.
2) A Christian believes in God's teaching of moral values.
3) God say's believe in # 1 and # 2 and he will take care of "your" life needs, "your" needs! No greed in his word. Don't be greedy now!
4) War! War against evil worshipers in the world. Yep, God put GW in power for a significant reason. Islam vs Jews period. US significance you ask? Superpower of the world for a reason! Isreal protector till Christ returns. Christian domanated country! Planned by God.
My belief anyways, that's why I stand so passionately behind the American people!
Love Kathy
1) A Christian believes in GOD.
2) A Christian believes in God's teaching of moral values.
3) God say's believe in # 1 and # 2 and he will take care of "your" life needs, "your" needs! No greed in his word. Don't be greedy now!
4) War! War against evil worshipers in the world. Yep, God put GW in power for a significant reason. Islam vs Jews period. US significance you ask? Superpower of the world for a reason! Isreal protector till Christ returns. Christian domanated country! Planned by God.
My belief anyways, that's why I stand so passionately behind the American people!
Love Kathy
Trasael Adnepos
Inactive
Nonsense, Fruitloop. "Even the demons believe, and they tremble..." Why do you think Rob is so incontrovertibly hostile to The Faith? Theology has never been your strong point, so as you may have noticed, I try not to argue it with you. Not questioning your personal belief in Christ, you understand. Only your understanding of what He believes...
As for any moral mandate, it remains to be seen what power the Republicans will now wield in this regard over the next four years. IF enough of them are righteous people, it will indeed make a substantive difference. I do hope and think many well-meaning people sell our President short in terms of both his ability to lead in these matters and his personal convictions.
It would suit me well to run most of the overt slime infesting our culture right back in their closets, and I warrant it is actually a majority of Americans who still feel very strongly about that, silent or not.
Tras
As for any moral mandate, it remains to be seen what power the Republicans will now wield in this regard over the next four years. IF enough of them are righteous people, it will indeed make a substantive difference. I do hope and think many well-meaning people sell our President short in terms of both his ability to lead in these matters and his personal convictions.
It would suit me well to run most of the overt slime infesting our culture right back in their closets, and I warrant it is actually a majority of Americans who still feel very strongly about that, silent or not.
Tras
KateCanada
Inactive
fruit loop said:People say they're "pro life" and anti-abortion but favor killing in war AND the death penalty?
Not all Christians are against abortion. Some, like me, don't like it but view it as the lesser of two evils, or think it's a matter for individual conscience. Others don't believe it's murder because they think the soul enters the body at birth and until then the fetus is not a separate entity from the mother.
Christians only agree on one thing....God exists.
If you think I'm going to spend my time on an obvious closed minded person as yourself to explain christian values about life and war as taught in the bible you are out of luck my friend. When and if ever you would like to know (for real) then ask me. Until then. Posting these kind of remarks are a waist of everyones time.
KateCanada
Inactive
By the way, not all Christians that claim to be Christain are Christians! People lie! ! 
Trasael Adnepos said:
Hostile to the faith?
I’m not hostile to Christianity but I do believe Christ was non-violent and one who follows Christ should also be non-violent or find another religion. I do confront the inequities in your reasoning which, despite all your denouncements and flamboyant banter about the ‘evil’ in everyone else, you never seem to face.
"I do believe Christ was no-vilent and one who follows Christ should also be non-violent or find another religion"
_______________________
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling the the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
And He said to them, "it is written, 'My HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED AND HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." (Matthew 21:12-13)
________________________________
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS" (Matthew 16:28)
________________________________________
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and willl throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew13: 41-42)
__________________________________________
Jesus said to him, " I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)
__________________________________________
_______________________
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling the the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
And He said to them, "it is written, 'My HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED AND HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." (Matthew 21:12-13)
________________________________
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS" (Matthew 16:28)
________________________________________
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and willl throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew13: 41-42)
__________________________________________
Jesus said to him, " I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)
__________________________________________
fruit loop
Inactive
The divine right to rule is crap
God does NOT appoint world leaders and I seriously doubt that if he was looking for one for the USA, El Shrubbo was the best he could find. If that's true, then God appointed Hitler. I DON'T THINK SO.
Kate, please use a spellchecker. If you want to debate me, learn to spell. The homonyms (waist up there was ridiculous) are ludicrous.
Christians can't even agree on matters of basic belief or dogma - baptismal methods are a good example, as is abortion.
I'm sure you don't want to live by my Lutheran beliefs any more than I would want to live by Pentecostal or Southern Baptist.
This is exactly why religion should stay out of government.
God does NOT appoint world leaders and I seriously doubt that if he was looking for one for the USA, El Shrubbo was the best he could find. If that's true, then God appointed Hitler. I DON'T THINK SO.
Kate, please use a spellchecker. If you want to debate me, learn to spell. The homonyms (waist up there was ridiculous) are ludicrous.
Christians can't even agree on matters of basic belief or dogma - baptismal methods are a good example, as is abortion.
I'm sure you don't want to live by my Lutheran beliefs any more than I would want to live by Pentecostal or Southern Baptist.
This is exactly why religion should stay out of government.
Jaded said:
That’s a long distance away from warring and killing. Now show me where Christ killed or told anyone to go out and kill. I hope you’re not basing you right to kill another individual and your morality on the overturning of a few tables.
<B>And He said to them, "it is written, 'My HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED AND HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." (Matthew 21:12-13)</B>
So maybe you should be using prayer as your avenue to God, understanding, morality and protection.
<B>"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS" (Matthew 16:28)</B>
Sounds like God will be the judge not you. When did you think God gave YOU that right.
<B>"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and willl throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew13: 41-42)</B>
Still sounds like judgement is in the hand of God not man. When did you think it was your 'privilege'?
<B>Jesus said to him, " I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)</B>
Exactly, Jesus was the ‘Prince of Peace’ who taught turning the other cheek. Who taught man’s reward is in heaven and judgement is for God.
It is for God to confront ‘evil’ and for man not to participate in it.
So I’m still waiting for the morality.... The ‘morality’ of killing that you think Christ gave you and I’m still waiting for the answer to the ‘justification’ and ‘morality’ of killing a pregnant women in war through ‘collateral damage’.
Christ was a pacifist and he preached exactly that. I notice you didn’t bring the Beatitudes into your list of biblical quotes. Maybe you should reread them.
Very good points Rob. I, too, have wondered for a long time why the warmongers could only point to Jesus' turning some tables over at a temple as justification for killing. Self-defense is one thing (although Jesus said to turn the other cheek), but it really doesn't fit in with Jesus's teachings. If killing was the answer, I wonder why didn't Jesus defend himself before they put him on the cross. He said something to the effect, "Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world." I think this statement goes along with the idea that it is not our job to judge our neighbor, or kill because we might be killed or threatened. We are to live our life on earth in the same way that Jesus did, he set an example for us. If we don't follow his example, then we are following the ways of the world, and we will not see heaven. That's why he said the way to God is through him, that is following his example. I am not saying these teachings are right or wrong, all I am saying is I don't see what moral values have to do with George Bush.
fruit loop
Inactive
My thoughts as a Christian.....
"There are two reasons to kill. Survival and meat." - John Wayne in "Big Jake"
Do not commit violence against others, but if threatened, one has the right to defend. God will forgive this. If your home and family are invaded and threatened, one is obligated to do so.
I think General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson said this best. He was deeply religious, but said that if invaded or threatened, attack the invaders and kill them all.
"There are two reasons to kill. Survival and meat." - John Wayne in "Big Jake"
Do not commit violence against others, but if threatened, one has the right to defend. God will forgive this. If your home and family are invaded and threatened, one is obligated to do so.
I think General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson said this best. He was deeply religious, but said that if invaded or threatened, attack the invaders and kill them all.
Trasael Adnepos
Inactive
I have to agree with you there, Fruitloop. We have been threatened and invaded long enough by the truly evil elements of our culture, until there is rampant confusion concerning what is evil; even until we have nearly forfeited the absolute right to defend the very definitions of evil and defense against the humanist think-speak and sedition by syntax. It is high time we defend.
Now hear this, evil-doers. These words are the FLAT edge of the sword.
Tras
Now hear this, evil-doers. These words are the FLAT edge of the sword.
Tras
bigwavedave
Deceased
KateCanada said:By the way, not all Christians that claim to be Christain are Christians! People lie! !
and they are ALL democrats. right, Kate?
uh-oh. looks like tras has his sword out and he's coming for me! tras, meet my shotgun. why, hi there, tras. ka-blammy!
Rob:
It seems to me that you are not a student of the Bible/Christian Theology. The last verse I quoted was in response to your suggestion that Christians find another religion. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that there IS NO OTHER WAY TO GOD EXCEPT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD. All other religions are false gods. The New Age philosophy that any/all religions are the same and everyone "good" will go to heaven, nirvana, transcendence, etc. does not hold water with TRUE Christians and never will. In fact, we believe that all men are sinners and it is only through Jesus' death on the cross for our sins that we will be allowed before God if we believe in Him. A very Un-PC view, I know. In the end, we will be hated and hunted for our beliefs (Bible says that also).
There is another point that perhaps has not been explained to you. Most Christians believe in the right to defend yourself, your family and your country/people. There are NUMEROUS examples of this in the Bible. Christians believe the Bible is the Truth and the Word of God. They also believe that Jesus IS GOD. They are One. When Jesus came, He came as a Lamb, a sacrifice. That was His role. Next time, he will come as a Lion, and His role will be VASTLY different. That was the point I was attempting to make with the prior verses. As well as trying to point out that Christ did indeed have Righteous anger. This will become CRYSTAL CLEAR when He comes again to Judge.
Having explained that, can you see why the fact that Christ did not make war does not mean that Christians are absolute pacifists?
The question of the hour seems to me to be simply this: Was the War on Terror necessary in self-defence of our LIVES? The answer to that goes deeply into politics and who you believe.
Jaded
BTW, Me? Judge? I have to be the worst sinner in the world. My life would be a foul stench of unbelievable magnitude to God. Jesus Christ is my Savior (from my judgement and sentence to Hell). I pray for His Spirit to work in my life.
It seems to me that you are not a student of the Bible/Christian Theology. The last verse I quoted was in response to your suggestion that Christians find another religion. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that there IS NO OTHER WAY TO GOD EXCEPT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD. All other religions are false gods. The New Age philosophy that any/all religions are the same and everyone "good" will go to heaven, nirvana, transcendence, etc. does not hold water with TRUE Christians and never will. In fact, we believe that all men are sinners and it is only through Jesus' death on the cross for our sins that we will be allowed before God if we believe in Him. A very Un-PC view, I know. In the end, we will be hated and hunted for our beliefs (Bible says that also).
There is another point that perhaps has not been explained to you. Most Christians believe in the right to defend yourself, your family and your country/people. There are NUMEROUS examples of this in the Bible. Christians believe the Bible is the Truth and the Word of God. They also believe that Jesus IS GOD. They are One. When Jesus came, He came as a Lamb, a sacrifice. That was His role. Next time, he will come as a Lion, and His role will be VASTLY different. That was the point I was attempting to make with the prior verses. As well as trying to point out that Christ did indeed have Righteous anger. This will become CRYSTAL CLEAR when He comes again to Judge.
Having explained that, can you see why the fact that Christ did not make war does not mean that Christians are absolute pacifists?
The question of the hour seems to me to be simply this: Was the War on Terror necessary in self-defence of our LIVES? The answer to that goes deeply into politics and who you believe.
Jaded
BTW, Me? Judge? I have to be the worst sinner in the world. My life would be a foul stench of unbelievable magnitude to God. Jesus Christ is my Savior (from my judgement and sentence to Hell). I pray for His Spirit to work in my life.
Jaded said:
Not that Christians find another religion but that those who believe they are Christians follow Christ who killed no one and if one proposes follow ANY religion then reason dictates that they do just that. This goes for the ‘hindu’ who kills in the name of Krishna or the ‘christian’ who kills in the name of Christ.
<B> I believe that the Bible makes it clear that there IS NO OTHER WAY TO GOD EXCEPT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD. All other religions are false gods.</B>
While you are entitled to your belief mine is that the avenue to God is through individual action and that it is an individual’s life that determines his spirituality and morality and not the system he chooses to label himself by. Simply that the divine test of an man’s worth is not his theology but his life.
<B> The New Age philosophy that any/all religions are the same and everyone "good" will go to heaven, nirvana, transcendence, etc. does not hold water with TRUE Christians and never will. In fact, we believe that all men are sinners and it is only through Jesus' death on the cross for our sins that we will be allowed before God if we believe in Him. A very Un-PC view, I know. In the end, we will be hated and hunted for our beliefs (Bible says that also).</B>
Your rigidity is not new in history. Understand that there is an individual somewhere else on this planet who has the same ‘ideals’ as you but his bias is towards another religion. These are the seeds of war as history has also born out. It is fragmentation and is built on the illusion that we are right and the other is wrong (ego). Ego is an aspect of fear and fear is the opposite of love.
<B>There is another point that perhaps has not been explained to you. Most Christians believe in the right to defend yourself, your family and your country/people. There are NUMEROUS examples of this in the Bible. Christians believe the Bible is the Truth and the Word of God. They also believe that Jesus IS GOD. They are One. When Jesus came, He came as a Lamb, a sacrifice. That was His role. Next time, he will come as a Lion, and His role will be VASTLY different. That was the point I was attempting to make with the prior verses. As well as trying to point out that Christ did indeed have Righteous anger. This will become CRYSTAL CLEAR when He comes again to Judge.</B>
‘Most’ ‘christians’ believing in the right to defend themselves does not establish right. If a majority established right Christians would be praying to Barabus today. What do you say to those groups like the Mennonites and Quakers who believe that Christ’s message was non-violence? They read the same book as you.
How do you make the jump from Christ’s providence to your actions? I’ll let Christ come back and judge what is ‘evil. It is not in man’s right to act on God’s behalf. That is for God to do. It is for man to not participate in the ‘evil’ he perceives.
<B>Having explained that, can you see why the fact that Christ did not make war does not mean that Christians are absolute pacifists?</B>
Having explained what?
This thread is about morality.
I’m still waiting for you to explain how you can dismiss one form of killing (war) and be outraged at another (abortion) because war invariably kills innocent people and pregnant women. We already know this unless you think the bomb that killed 100 thousand innocent people instantly some how missed all the pregnant women and innocent children.
<B>The question of the hour seems to me to be simply this: Was the War on Terror necessary in self-defence of our LIVES? The answer to that goes deeply into politics and who you believe.</B>
I thought your reward was in ‘heaven’ and not this earth? Kill or be killed is that the message Christ brought? Or was the message turn the other cheek, love your brother as yourself?
<B>BTW, Me? Judge? I have to be the worst sinner in the world. My life would be a foul stench of unbelievable magnitude to God. Jesus Christ is my Savior (from my judgement and sentence to Hell). I pray for His Spirit to work in my life.</B>
<B>All other religions are false gods.</B>
I believe that statement speaks for itself as to your judging.
Trasael Adnepos
Inactive
Oh man, that ridiculous mantra of the Left that everyone is "judging" the moment they speak truth or define morality by the only absolute standards of right and wrong in the universe, is getting weaker by the second, Rob.
Admit it. Your controversy is with Truth itself, and with Morality! Are you truly incapable of that much personal honesty?!
We don't invent this stuff, (like you invent your whole illusory, delusional, shape-shifting, moral relativity, crazy universe), we ACCEPT IT. It's sort of like gravity. It's there, and there are certain consequences if you refuse to believe it. It worked pretty well for a couple of hundred years before your delusions became epidemic among US.
Oh, that's rich, intelligent and original, Dave. I see your true colors. Your answer to being confronted with the sword of truth is a shotgun and a murderous heart, eh? The little smellie next to it doesn't exactly mask that. I would have given you more credit than to be such a sore LOSER. Threats of violence won't do you much good unless you enjoy hollow venting. The Democratic party has sealed its fate and it going the way of the Whigs. That rattle of yours is as hollow as the baby variety now. Had enough yet?
Don't worry, you vampire Californicans obviously have sealed your fate with this initiative to grind up babies for research with no measurable result to date. (Not to mention that you were already insolvent BEFORE you funded this latest PC boondoggle.) My, what a noble lot you must be. I'm sure you and Rob will be well insulated from accountablility for your morals in that looney bin. Mexico can have you...
Man, I only pray for protection of the righteous who remain among you.
Tras
Admit it. Your controversy is with Truth itself, and with Morality! Are you truly incapable of that much personal honesty?!
We don't invent this stuff, (like you invent your whole illusory, delusional, shape-shifting, moral relativity, crazy universe), we ACCEPT IT. It's sort of like gravity. It's there, and there are certain consequences if you refuse to believe it. It worked pretty well for a couple of hundred years before your delusions became epidemic among US.
Oh, that's rich, intelligent and original, Dave. I see your true colors. Your answer to being confronted with the sword of truth is a shotgun and a murderous heart, eh? The little smellie next to it doesn't exactly mask that. I would have given you more credit than to be such a sore LOSER. Threats of violence won't do you much good unless you enjoy hollow venting. The Democratic party has sealed its fate and it going the way of the Whigs. That rattle of yours is as hollow as the baby variety now. Had enough yet?
Don't worry, you vampire Californicans obviously have sealed your fate with this initiative to grind up babies for research with no measurable result to date. (Not to mention that you were already insolvent BEFORE you funded this latest PC boondoggle.) My, what a noble lot you must be. I'm sure you and Rob will be well insulated from accountablility for your morals in that looney bin. Mexico can have you...
Man, I only pray for protection of the righteous who remain among you.
Tras
bigwavedave
Deceased
well, tras, if you come out for a visit, check your delusions at the door.
We don't invent this stuff, (like you invent your whole illusory, delusional, shape-shifting, moral relativity, crazy universe), we ACCEPT IT. It's sort of like gravity. It's there, and there are certain consequences if you refuse to believe it. It worked pretty well for a couple of hundred years before your delusions became epidemic among US.
there are no consequences whatsoever if i refuse to accept what YOU believe. unless, of course, you elect to use force on those who don't believe what you believe. gravity affects us all. christianity does not.
i believe you would use force. you wouldn't start it yourself. you don't have the fortitude. you'd wait for critical mass so your wildest and bloodiest hostilities could be fully unleashed without temperment. yes, that is how hostile i believe you to be.
you are far more like the taliban than a US citizen. you are our problem, not the inverse.
We don't invent this stuff, (like you invent your whole illusory, delusional, shape-shifting, moral relativity, crazy universe), we ACCEPT IT. It's sort of like gravity. It's there, and there are certain consequences if you refuse to believe it. It worked pretty well for a couple of hundred years before your delusions became epidemic among US.
there are no consequences whatsoever if i refuse to accept what YOU believe. unless, of course, you elect to use force on those who don't believe what you believe. gravity affects us all. christianity does not.
i believe you would use force. you wouldn't start it yourself. you don't have the fortitude. you'd wait for critical mass so your wildest and bloodiest hostilities could be fully unleashed without temperment. yes, that is how hostile i believe you to be.
you are far more like the taliban than a US citizen. you are our problem, not the inverse.