MSM Prisoners in the US are part of a hidden workforce linked to hundreds of popular food brands
- Thread starter medic38572
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Blacknarwhal
Let's Go Brandon!
Yes, I have run my own business with employees. Subcontractors, actually, but still.
Consider the size of the labor force as it stands. 13 million isn't a patch on that.
SouthernBreeze
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have never known a prison system anywhere in the US that have paid the prisoners minimum wages. I never expect to see that happening in the future, either.
So, you think all of us are going to be rounded up as criminals in the future and not be paid anything? Life is full of "what if's". Doesn't mean any of those will come to pass. Even if it does, and we are jailed, I don't think us earning a minimum wage will be at the top of our priorities list.
bev
Has No Life - Lives on TB
DH and I decided we wanted to check out Buc-ees yesterday, about an hour away.
“Buc-ee's is a chain of large format travel centers known for their clean restrooms.”
Anyway, DH noticed a sign at the entrance stating that the starting pay for a job there was $18.00/hour!
It’s hard to imagine prisoners being paid even minimum wage. Those who have minimum wage jobs would likely have a problem with that.
CaryC
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Not only that but hey, rob a store and get away with a tv, or get caught and get a real job. 6 to one, half a dozen to another. To them anyway. Crime pays. Yee Hawww.
Unemployed on the street: I tried to get that job. sniff.
Criminal: It's not my fault, I didn't want it, they are making me. All I wanted was a free TV. sniff.
My biggest issue with prison labor (assuming basic protections like requiring OSHA standards to be met) is that their products are competing with those from independent producers who don't have free labor.
I'd have zero issues if they made it voluntary (and tied it to earning privileges, including teevee and/or computer time), as well as paying them a *reasonable * wage... from which the cost of room, board and medical care is deducted.
Basically, the same as the rest of us!
But the products should only be used in the prison system... food products processed and used to feed the prisoners, clothing made for them,, etc.OR, products which are "specialty" stuff, used only by the government, such as license plates.
Summerthyme
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
if they insist on rounding up conservatives their end game will be execution for the majority of us, NOT slave labor!
SouthernBreeze
Has No Life - Lives on TB
That's exactly what I was referring to in my statement. Our lives will be in the balance. No time to be worried about whether or not we are paid minimum wages or any wages for that matter.
homecanner1
Veteran Member
No this is not new. In fact we discussed this topic in the early years of the board after the jump here from Greenspun.
Note the date from In these Times is 2002
And this one from The Nation, same time frame
I recall vividly the collective Karen outrage over Eddie Bauer prison made polo shirts and the dumping of them at Goodwill and garage sales. They were retailing for abt $38.99 then, $40 with tax.
You can find those vintage late 90's pastel golf shirts used on ebay. If you are in the mood to display prison made goods. Fun Boogaloo gear for the months ahead.
Apparently there was a silk screening outfit using prison labor to make those Taco Bell Chihuahua logo cotton t shirts back then too.
These clothes are floating round at your local thrift if you are good at spotting specific years from old catalogs.
That is a 20 yr old shirt and has held up fairly well tho faded from washing, which may be indicative of their workskill on display. Kudos if the original buttons still on too.
I am not against free will employ of prisoners who want job training and learning. Rate of Compensation MUST be worked out with the state prison board. But the food like the clothes should be traceable, accountable and identified as such.
"These Eggland Eggs were farmed and packaged as part of prison rehab services".
"Belgioso uses raw milk from prison dairy industry for some of its cheese."
Let the consumers decide if giving them honest work is an honorable endeavor.
During the Wisc River flooding just before covid, the state used prison labor to fill sandbags and there was a robust waiting list to join the day out workcrews as the good deed went towards sentence reduction. I believe then Gov. Walker was photo op with them too. They were heroes
Was a good thought provoking article Medic! Thanks
Note the date from In these Times is 2002
And this one from The Nation, same time frame
I recall vividly the collective Karen outrage over Eddie Bauer prison made polo shirts and the dumping of them at Goodwill and garage sales. They were retailing for abt $38.99 then, $40 with tax.
You can find those vintage late 90's pastel golf shirts used on ebay. If you are in the mood to display prison made goods. Fun Boogaloo gear for the months ahead.
Apparently there was a silk screening outfit using prison labor to make those Taco Bell Chihuahua logo cotton t shirts back then too.
These clothes are floating round at your local thrift if you are good at spotting specific years from old catalogs.
That is a 20 yr old shirt and has held up fairly well tho faded from washing, which may be indicative of their workskill on display. Kudos if the original buttons still on too.
I am not against free will employ of prisoners who want job training and learning. Rate of Compensation MUST be worked out with the state prison board. But the food like the clothes should be traceable, accountable and identified as such.
"These Eggland Eggs were farmed and packaged as part of prison rehab services".
"Belgioso uses raw milk from prison dairy industry for some of its cheese."
Let the consumers decide if giving them honest work is an honorable endeavor.
During the Wisc River flooding just before covid, the state used prison labor to fill sandbags and there was a robust waiting list to join the day out workcrews as the good deed went towards sentence reduction. I believe then Gov. Walker was photo op with them too. They were heroes
Was a good thought provoking article Medic! Thanks
Forced labor is wrong. Those prisoners have every right to refuse to do the work. Unless forced labor was part of the punishment sentence then those prisons and the people forcing them to work are violating the prisoners rights. IMO if the prisoners are being beaten of punished for not working then the prisoners have every right to get violent and fight back however they choose
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Unless work was part of the punishment at sentencing then forcing them to do any work is wrong. If the state wants renegotiate the punishment with the prisoner and both can come to an agreement then ok
These programs are something the prisoners have to qualify for. If they are behavioral problems they don't qualify/earn/or anything else you want to call it.
Which is better for them ... to volunteer for a work program that might earn them early release points, good behavior points, commissary dollars, etc. That hopefully gives them a sense of self-worth and pride. OR, have them sit around on their asses doing nothing but playing and then when they get out qualify for all the entitlement programs?
Yes, there needs to be rules, but these people are not "slaves." You wanna know what a slave really is/was, then look into human trafficking and/or do a little research on actual slavery.
Please don't let the libs draw you in. Don't take the article at face value. Do some research.
Which is better for them ... to volunteer for a work program that might earn them early release points, good behavior points, commissary dollars, etc. That hopefully gives them a sense of self-worth and pride. OR, have them sit around on their asses doing nothing but playing and then when they get out qualify for all the entitlement programs?
Yes, there needs to be rules, but these people are not "slaves." You wanna know what a slave really is/was, then look into human trafficking and/or do a little research on actual slavery.
Please don't let the libs draw you in. Don't take the article at face value. Do some research.
West
Senior
I'm all for the prisoners to have to work. But they should do labor intensive jobs if capable.
But they or the fed prison/state should have to pay all of the mandated payroll liabilities as the private sector labor employers do!
My point is not that the prisons should have to abide by the same rules as the private sector. But that the private sector should not have to abide by any of the mandated payroll liabilities to begin with.
Otherwise it's fudged up if they get away not paying a minimum wage and the all in mandated payroll taxes/liabilities! Steals jobs from the law abiding peoples.
But yes, the really bad prisoners should have to make big rocks into little rocks. I have to pay several hundred dollars plus for a dump truck load most every year. Stuff is not cheap and getting more expensive every year.
More money or wealth has been made from rocks over the years than any other matrial.
But they or the fed prison/state should have to pay all of the mandated payroll liabilities as the private sector labor employers do!
My point is not that the prisons should have to abide by the same rules as the private sector. But that the private sector should not have to abide by any of the mandated payroll liabilities to begin with.
Otherwise it's fudged up if they get away not paying a minimum wage and the all in mandated payroll taxes/liabilities! Steals jobs from the law abiding peoples.
But yes, the really bad prisoners should have to make big rocks into little rocks. I have to pay several hundred dollars plus for a dump truck load most every year. Stuff is not cheap and getting more expensive every year.
More money or wealth has been made from rocks over the years than any other matrial.
tnphil
Don't screw with an engineer
If you don't work, can you eat? Can you pay for lodging of any sort? Medical care?
So, you're gonna tell me that by breaking the law, I can avoid those most basic principles???
They are in prison as punishment. That doesn't mean they get to suck the teat of society.
In most states you can eat, get lodging and medical care from the government with lots for social programs. So working is a mute point and off topic for this thread.
Yes, people convicted or self confessed, in the prison systems are wards of the state and the states responsibility. Those people are in prison for a specified amount of time for punishment for breaking a law. Unless forced labor is part of the punishment handed down at sentencing time, it is against the prisoners rights to force them to do labor. Believe it or not prisoners still have constitutional right.
All prisons and prisoners are paid for by the government. As they should be. The state put them in prison so the state can pay for them....pretty simple.
Then let the prisoners go. They won't be needing any more then.
Forcing them to work to slavery. Does the 13th amendment not apply in prisons?
You bring up a great point. What if a person is wrongfully convicted. Can they turn around and take everyone involved to court?
Every prison guard and employee the the prisoner came in contact with. How about the companies that benefited? Can they be sued for back wages?
tnphil
Don't screw with an engineer
I can't take you seriously. You can't even discern the difference to say a "moot" point, which is way different than a "mute" point.
Words mean things. Learn to distinguish. If you can't communicate, your words don't mean jack. And it's a sign of level of intelligence.
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So is being able to refute ideas rather than get nit-picky about words.
What many do not understand is the prison's where this happens is entirely funded each year by taxpayers and the profits from this illegal activity is lining someones pockets at the state level.
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You are correct I made a typo
Scrapman
Veteran Member
I'd like to here more about the middle men . Like the rancher that buys the cattle and takes it to slaughter. Why do they need him . How much does he pay for the cattle and what is it worth.
I'm willing to bet bet he is some Boss Hog character complete with white suit and cigar.
I'm willing to bet bet he is some Boss Hog character complete with white suit and cigar.
Nah... if they're finished cattle, they're sold to a packing house or a dealer who "bundles" groups of cattle into trailer loads of animals of similar size and weight, and taken to a slaughterhouse. It sounds like they're taken to a public livestock auction, to compete with local cattle.
It's also possible a dealer/buyer would have an arrangement to go to the prison and negotiate prices for finished groups, but that's less common.
Summerthyme
CaryC
Has No Life - Lives on TB
If you don't want to earn a dime, don't do the crime.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
I know, right!
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I am at my wife’s chemo session, and I do not have time to do much commenting until late tonight, after my wife goes to bed.
But I have been on the Angola prison grounds (as a student who spent a week mini-internship, working there and in the nearby St Gabriel prison for women and the also near by Scotlandville youth training center, NOT as an inmate) —
and one thing I can assure you of, Summerthyme, is that those cattle were about the healthiest that were sold to the dealer/packing house. I would gladly have eaten that beef. The prisoners on that work assignment are the best, most trusted prisoners in the institution (and also the Rodeo gang - yes, Angola has. Yearly Rodeo - and it is a big, classy affair). They are selected for their skills handling animals, and these men - oftentimes cruelly treated themselves - make a point of protecting the welfare of the farm animals.
Men had to be forced to work the fields. But it was a sought after honor to get assigned to work animal husbandry at the prison.
Beyond that, I have eaten food produced there - the bread is awful and the lye soap (yes, real lye soap like Franny Clampet used to make) was something to avoid.
The molasses, on the other hand, was great. Wish I could buy some and have it sent to Tennessee.
I gotta go. Get back to this later.
PghPanther
Has No Life - Lives on TB
A lot of them want to do labor for free....
Why in fact there were a whole group of them were working away once on a project in an update NY state prison building a..........
...........helicopter.
Why in fact there were a whole group of them were working away once on a project in an update NY state prison building a..........
...........helicopter.
You have a point and maybe correct. Do we really trust our justice system? I don't have much faith in it right now. I know for most people it seems easy to say that they are just criminals and they deserve what they get. I just hope there aren't innocent people in jail. People that were railroaded or couldn't afford the right attorney.
Look at how government went after and treated the Jan 6 people. Most of those people are guilty of nothing more simple trespass at best. Others didn't even go inside the capital and were just in the area. How about the person that was sent to jail for sharing a meme. Are all of the hardened criminals? Is everyone forced to work actually convicted of a crime or are they still awaiting trial? Some people rot in cells for a few years until they get a trial or the charges are dropped. Those people are simply accused of a crime and not found guilty of anything yet.
Some people seem to have blind faith in the justice system. I think it is very flawed and have zero faith in it. For the "they are criminals just throw away the key" types, I hope it is never you, a friend, or family member being subjected to forced labor for a crime that is made up or even innocent of. I've heard some people say that they will never go to jail because they don't break the law or associate with criminals. That is great until the they are on the governments target list. If the government wants a person it will get that person. With so many laws on the books today it is hard not a break a law. Plus the government doesn't really have to prove anything, just drag the charges out in court long enough. At that point most people run out of funds and just want it to be done with. At that point the government ruined a persons life through reputation and draining of their live savings.
I don't trust the system.
Sandcastle76
Senior Member
I know first hand about this subject…during the COVID lockdown debacle…there were no employees to hire. The women’s transition unit in vidalia/ferriday area of Louisiana started a work program. These women were transitioning from incarceration to supervised release facilities, then out being on parole.
The grocery stores, restaurants and fast food locations were only open because of them…period, end stop. We had / were allocated two workers. They had to qualify at the prison and go through our interview process. We had to pay $.50 cents above minimum wage if we hired the ones sent to us. The $.50 cents an hour more was for the prison to transport them to work. We had to guarantee they got 30 hours a week. They kept 50% percent of their paycheck, which was used in the commissary and also was spent in local stores like Walmart, dollar tree, etc. They also got the balance of what they had left when they transitioned out.
They were the best workers we had over that two year period. They fought to get those opportunities to work “outside”. They were not in anyway “forced labor”. We paid taxes on their wages as normal and never looked back…I even wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them so they could get a job once they got to the halfway house before being paroled. Remember, this was when our government was paying people $6-800 dollars a week to sit at home and do nothing. That was in and of itself was what was criminal…that was what was killing the small business owners…just saying.
The grocery stores, restaurants and fast food locations were only open because of them…period, end stop. We had / were allocated two workers. They had to qualify at the prison and go through our interview process. We had to pay $.50 cents above minimum wage if we hired the ones sent to us. The $.50 cents an hour more was for the prison to transport them to work. We had to guarantee they got 30 hours a week. They kept 50% percent of their paycheck, which was used in the commissary and also was spent in local stores like Walmart, dollar tree, etc. They also got the balance of what they had left when they transitioned out.
They were the best workers we had over that two year period. They fought to get those opportunities to work “outside”. They were not in anyway “forced labor”. We paid taxes on their wages as normal and never looked back…I even wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them so they could get a job once they got to the halfway house before being paroled. Remember, this was when our government was paying people $6-800 dollars a week to sit at home and do nothing. That was in and of itself was what was criminal…that was what was killing the small business owners…just saying.
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Blacknarwhal
Let's Go Brandon!
For anyone who doesn't think that businesses would cheerfully use slave labor if it were available, consider Sephora.
It just made $10 billion last year. It then "rewarded" its employees--the ones that actually made the money--with this.
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/southpark/comments/1abnd0v/our_reward_for_our_company_making_10_billion/
It just made $10 billion last year. It then "rewarded" its employees--the ones that actually made the money--with this.
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/southpark/comments/1abnd0v/our_reward_for_our_company_making_10_billion/
Melodi
Disaster Cat
This is an example of how it should work. Businesses pay minimum wage, and prisoners soon learn valuable skills and have money put aside for them when released. They are not taking the place of non-incarcerated employees, and corporations are not encouraged to build or contract out prisoners for 20 cents an hour in place of non-incarcerated employees.
There are some excellent programs out there. The problem is that there are far too many examples of corporations using prisoners as highly cheap labor because they can pay wages that are lower even than in the third world.
Way too many large corporations have come to depend on this, as have some states that have agreements with them (and the private companies that run prisons).
As I said earlier, it can be something other than the prisoner getting a full minimum wage, or at least not immediately. Taking some money out for victim support, court-ordered child support, and additional costs is acceptable. Keeping a percentage ahead (as is being done in the program cited above) for the person to use upon release is fantastic. Of course, allow a certain percentage to go to the prisoner as an incentive and to enable them to buy necessities or small treats at the commissary.
The businesses employing them must comply with all safety and other regulations, including workers' compensation if injured or killed on the job. That protects the taxpayer because otherwise, the taxpayer may end up footing the bill either for medical costs or in wrongful death lawsuits from the surviving family.
Tessa
Contributing Member
Years ago, in my community a man was sent to prison. First thing they did when he got off the bus was bend him over a barrel and put the chains on his legs and arms. Then they ripped the back out of his shirt and beat him with a whip. He asked why he was being beat and was told that it was because he got himself in prison. The last man to get out of bed in the morning, last man to get to the table at mealtime was beat. The last man to catch his work horse was beat.
I have picked cotton, I never heard anyone in the south cry about the cotton bolls making their hands bleed. My sister just two years older than me made Daddy a dollar a day picking cotton when she was 6 years old. At the end of the day on Friday everyone got a big ice cream cone.
I have picked cotton, I never heard anyone in the south cry about the cotton bolls making their hands bleed. My sister just two years older than me made Daddy a dollar a day picking cotton when she was 6 years old. At the end of the day on Friday everyone got a big ice cream cone.