And you make my point for me. Thank you.
Trauma medical kit (blowout kit) - Do you have one? - Know how/when to use it?
And you make my point for me. Thank you.
Seeker22
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Multiple Ekits here too, although mine seems to tends more to the Veterinarian side.
I haven't seen anyone mention the treatment of Rattlesnake bites as a Trauma situation. I have Sawyer Bite and Sting kits and have had to use them. Went to a Rattlesnake Roundup once and every EMT was hovering over the pit with their Sawyer kit in hand. That was 20 years ago. Is there anything better nowdays?
I haven't seen anyone mention the treatment of Rattlesnake bites as a Trauma situation. I have Sawyer Bite and Sting kits and have had to use them. Went to a Rattlesnake Roundup once and every EMT was hovering over the pit with their Sawyer kit in hand. That was 20 years ago. Is there anything better nowdays?
Repairman-Jack
Veteran Member
A few years ago at Western PA annual EMS conference, a Doctor from UPMC gave a very good presentation on snake bites, his opinion of the sawyer kit was, throw it in the garbage. About a week ago during an online debate about giving dogs benadryl for snakebite I ran across another article from another doctor that said there might be some benefit if you could use the sawyer kit in the first five minutes, after that waste of time.
Seeker22
Has No Life - Lives on TB
If I can't get my hands on a Sawyer in the first two minutes, I'm not trying very hard.
SouthernBreeze
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yeah, and this is one of those things that really concerns me here in the South with all of our different species of poisonous snakes. If the Sawyer kit isn't really that great for treatment, what is?
Jackpine Savage
Veteran Member
Here's a good read from Greg Ellifritz on tourniquets.
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-best-tourniquets-a-research-review
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-best-tourniquets-a-research-review
Repairman-Jack
Veteran Member
Here are two decent articles from Journal of Emergency Medicine.
https://www.jems.com/articles/print.../assessing-treating-and-preventing-snake.html
https://www.jems.com/articles/2007/03/snakebites.html
Treatment will vary a little depending on if the venom is hemotoxic or neurotoxic.
High level treatment:
"Keep the patient calm and reassured. Have them lie down and remain still and try to restrict overall movement. Monitor airway, breathing, circulation, disability (of nervous system), exposure/environmental control (protect from cold/water) and begin treatment immediately.
Take the patient’s vital signs initially and repeatedly—at least every five minutes. Conserve the victim’s body heat. Also make note as to what first aid has already been attempted or delivered prior to EMS arrival. Protect the injured area and keep it clean and dry, even gently immobilizing the limb to prevent movement and pain. All jewelry or anything on the bitten limb should be removed as soon as possible."
Repairman-Jack
Veteran Member
Yep...also just about 8 days ago they released the update with the added TQs
Good break down of the "approved" TQs in this video (5:06 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viRkIiaKhkY
The list:
Combat Application Tourniquet (CAT) Gen 7
Combat Application Tourniquet (CAT) Gen 6
Ratcheting Medical Tourniquet -Tactical (RMT-T)
SAM Extremity Tourniquet (SAM-XT)
SOF Tactical Tourniquet – Wide (SOFTT-W)
Tactical Mechanical Tourniquet (TMT)
TX2” Tourniquet (TX2)
TX3” Tourniquet (TX3)
PNEUMATIC LIMB TOURNIQUETS:
Emergency & Military Tourniquet (EMT)
Tactical Pneumatic Tourniquet 2” (TPT2)
I always keep a tourniquet and chest seals at hand. Don't always have them EDC, all the time. Everyone at the Luddite hovel knows to grab the STOMP bag on their way out the door if there is the slightest chance they might not be home for a few days, or ever.
A couple of extra IFAKs are around. I'd rather loan one than share MINE.
A couple of extra IFAKs are around. I'd rather loan one than share MINE.
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Have studies changed the percentage of dry bites from 85% recently??
SouthernBreeze
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thanks for those links! I read both of them. I guess what I was asking was how to treat snake bites without the use of antivenin or ER visits should we be in a SHTF event? I know that, before antivenin, lots of people died from snake bites, so is death almost a certainty?
1911user
Veteran Member
Is the SWAT-T tourniquet bad? It's not so easy to use as a CAT, but it folds/rolls down small and can be wrapped around a few things to make a decent EDC trauma kit.
From post #11; https://medicalgearoutfitters.com/collections/trauma-kits/products/edc-trauma-kit.
That's my EDC along with a small amount of duct tape for 1-2 improvised chest seals.
school marm
Senior Member
The SWAT-T isn't bad, but it takes two hands to use and thus is not preferred for that reason. However, it is preferred for small children and anyone with thin arms. Since I'm more likely to be with children and the elderly than stomping around in the brush carrying a weapon, it's the tourniquet of choice for me.
school marm
Senior Member
I am aware of two herbalists that have treated poisonous snake bites.
Dr. Patrick Jones, author of The HomeGrown Herbalist, is a veterinarian who has treated poisonous snake bites in his practice.
Sam Coffman, author of The Herbal Medic, served as a medic in the military. He currently runs a clinic and teaches courses in person and online for using herbs. He has also treated snake bites in dogs. As I recall, he wouldn't do it in people for liability reasons, but for himself he'd do it in a heart beat. He has devoted an entire chapter in his book to treating venomous bites.
Both these guys use Echinacea. But Sam has exact detail and other herbs and activated charcoal that he uses.
I posted reviews of both books on my blog. For the Reader's Digest version: Sam's is triple the price at $60, but well worth every penny.
Oh, and as far as the Sawyer snake bite kits are concerned, two ER/survival medicine docs I visited with said they're probably worthless EXCEPT that if the patient believes the kit will work, it will help the patient calm down and slow the heart rate a little. They wouldn't waste time on it, but if you have extra hands and someone else to use it while you do the really important stuff, it wouldn't hurt.
1911user
Veteran Member
If you are thinking of difficulty using on yourself, watch the last few minutes of this video. He shows how to start it one handed.
(11:40) EDC Trauma Kit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zTOy3ELOp0
Repairman-Jack
Veteran Member
Preferred by whom? Hartford Consensus? College of Surgeons Committee on Trauma? Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care?
Frankly I wouldn't give two squirts for a windless TQ (other than pneumatic), If you are going to spend $25 on a rubber band, spend $29 and get a CAT or SOFTT-Wide.
Pediatric Extremity Hemorrhage and Tourniquet Use:
https://www.jems.com/articles/2018/11/pediatric-extremity-hemorrhage-and-tourniquet-use.html
"Conclusion
Current evidence suggests that direct pressure, commercial tourniquets and improvised tourniquets can adequately control pediatric extremity hemorrhage.
Being prepared for an emergency requires dedicated and recurrent training. Practice bleeding control by applying direct pressure, a commercial tourniquet, and a cravat on a simulated (yet human, i.e., standardized) small patient.
Take a moment to share the information you gained from this article, and from your own practice, with colleagues. Your knowledge, and the knowledge that you impart to others, will save lives"
SouthernBreeze
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thank you, school marm! I will definitely be getting Sam's book. I'm a huge fan of herbal/alternative medicine! I have several books on the subject, but not anything having to do with snake bites.
Jez
Veteran Member
This month is National Stop the Bleed Month. https://www.bleedingcontrol.org/may . You can find many classes for bleeding control for free or low cost.
A few Years ago my wife and I took a class from Lone Star Medics http://lonestarmedics.com/ and it was the best two day course we ever took. Caleb, our instructor, had a variety of gear that we were able to practice with. After the course I decided that I prefer the SOFT-Wide over the CAT Tourniquet, and have picked up quite a few. I even game some out over a few Christmas's. One of the things we did in class was practice self application of a tourniquet under a time limit of 12 seconds. The drill went that you were tossed a tourniquet and told which limb you had to apply; right arm for us right handed people was "fun".
Another thing to be very careful of is where you buy your tourniquet's from. There are a lot of cheap knock off's out there that do not hold up under actual use. I've bought my recent ones from http://darkangelmedical.com/. Medical gear is not cheap, but you have to ask yourself if you really want to skimp on the item that just may save your life. The Kit I carry on my "bat belt", as the wife call's it, is the Dark Angel Dark Trauma. It does have some bits that I'm not trained to use, but the idea is to have it so if it's needed and there is someone there that IS trained to use it they'll have it.
All bleeding stops eventually, ideally you'd rather to keep the blood IN the patient rather than out on the ground. In an active shooter event, Law Enforcement usually will not let medical on site until after the area is secure which can take minutes or longer and by that time someone is very likely to bleed out. I'd be willing to bet that if schools were stocked with trauma kits with gear to stop the bleed, there would be even fewer casualties. Basic training to stop bleeding isn't hard and can be done in less than a day. If I remember correctly, Tourniquet the limbs, high up on the limb not just above the wound because arteries can retract quite a bit; pack the joints (quick clot gauze would be ideal); and use a seal on the rest.
Interestingly, our instructor told us that the civilian medical community is just starting to come around to accept the Military's standard of applying a tourniquet first rather than a last resort.
Oh another thing I learned, using those black "medical gloves" is less than ideal, especially in low light, because it can sometimes be difficult to see the blood on your hands when you are doing your initial leak check.
Other pieces of advice. Scene Safety is priority one, you can't help your patient if bullets are still flying and you get shot, hit, or whatever. Once things are secure, direct someone by pointing at them and tell them to call 911, then begin your assessment. If you just do a general shout out, people will most likely be too stunned to do it and assume someone else is doing it. Also learn the laws of your area of operation. If you can be held liable for any aid you try to render, then it's your own judgement call if you want to get involved. In Texas, last time I checked, the law is in favor of us trying to render aid. Licensed people have their own rules and should already know them.
As always consult your local physician in the case of medical emergencies. The advice here is my opinion based upon what I learned and is not intended to be a medical opinion.
A few Years ago my wife and I took a class from Lone Star Medics http://lonestarmedics.com/ and it was the best two day course we ever took. Caleb, our instructor, had a variety of gear that we were able to practice with. After the course I decided that I prefer the SOFT-Wide over the CAT Tourniquet, and have picked up quite a few. I even game some out over a few Christmas's. One of the things we did in class was practice self application of a tourniquet under a time limit of 12 seconds. The drill went that you were tossed a tourniquet and told which limb you had to apply; right arm for us right handed people was "fun".
Another thing to be very careful of is where you buy your tourniquet's from. There are a lot of cheap knock off's out there that do not hold up under actual use. I've bought my recent ones from http://darkangelmedical.com/. Medical gear is not cheap, but you have to ask yourself if you really want to skimp on the item that just may save your life. The Kit I carry on my "bat belt", as the wife call's it, is the Dark Angel Dark Trauma. It does have some bits that I'm not trained to use, but the idea is to have it so if it's needed and there is someone there that IS trained to use it they'll have it.
All bleeding stops eventually, ideally you'd rather to keep the blood IN the patient rather than out on the ground. In an active shooter event, Law Enforcement usually will not let medical on site until after the area is secure which can take minutes or longer and by that time someone is very likely to bleed out. I'd be willing to bet that if schools were stocked with trauma kits with gear to stop the bleed, there would be even fewer casualties. Basic training to stop bleeding isn't hard and can be done in less than a day. If I remember correctly, Tourniquet the limbs, high up on the limb not just above the wound because arteries can retract quite a bit; pack the joints (quick clot gauze would be ideal); and use a seal on the rest.
Interestingly, our instructor told us that the civilian medical community is just starting to come around to accept the Military's standard of applying a tourniquet first rather than a last resort.
Oh another thing I learned, using those black "medical gloves" is less than ideal, especially in low light, because it can sometimes be difficult to see the blood on your hands when you are doing your initial leak check.
Other pieces of advice. Scene Safety is priority one, you can't help your patient if bullets are still flying and you get shot, hit, or whatever. Once things are secure, direct someone by pointing at them and tell them to call 911, then begin your assessment. If you just do a general shout out, people will most likely be too stunned to do it and assume someone else is doing it. Also learn the laws of your area of operation. If you can be held liable for any aid you try to render, then it's your own judgement call if you want to get involved. In Texas, last time I checked, the law is in favor of us trying to render aid. Licensed people have their own rules and should already know them.
As always consult your local physician in the case of medical emergencies. The advice here is my opinion based upon what I learned and is not intended to be a medical opinion.
Profit of Doom
Dismember
Might I point out that some time back there was talk of using a stun gun to electrically decompose the venom. I think that had been tossed out by now.
Yep...on the revival in the use of tourniquets. I was able to help out with a training lab a couple of times not long before I retired for a couple of Army National Guard medical units heading for deployment to Afghanistan. That's just about when the .mil world started preaching to the civilian emergency medical community to get over being afraid of using tourniquets even if time to evacuation is delayed. They are lifesavers on the battlefield and everywhere else, too. Massively sharp bunch of folks, taught by some the most knowledgeable the service had to offer, and were presenting the latest and greatest to the units. Those are days when you'd pay admission to go to work. 
1911user
Veteran Member
$25 gets the SWAT-T tourniquet, a flat NAR pressure bandage, compressed gauze, and the vasoline dressing (chest seal material). The SWAT-T is about $12 separately. For EDC considerations, it's small when rolled or folded compared to any windlass-type tourniquet. The guy in the video showing how to use the SWAT-T one-handed uses and prefers CATs unless trying to put one in a small pocket. Also, the rubber strip (SWAT-T) works well in pressure bandage (non-tourniquet) situations.
For smaller tourniquets and EDC, there is also the RAT (Rapid Application Tourniquet) which uses a narrow strap and has a pressure/tie-off bar. I recall a video discussing how it might be better for child/dog use since it is narrow; I'll look for it tonight.
EDIT: - link to RATs tourniquet removed by me - They seem to be a bad choice -
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hardrock
Veteran Member
From my limited experience, this killed many.
Shock: The Quiet Killer Of Trauma Victims - Firehouse
Search domain www.firehouse.com/home/news/1054428...4283/shock-the-quiet-killer-of-trauma-victims
Shock: The Quiet Killer Of Trauma Victims May 1, 1996 Garry Briese 0.
Shock: The Quiet Killer Of Trauma Victims - Firehouse
Search domain www.firehouse.com/home/news/1054428...4283/shock-the-quiet-killer-of-trauma-victims
Shock: The Quiet Killer Of Trauma Victims May 1, 1996 Garry Briese 0.
Repairman-Jack
Veteran Member
#^@%ing RATs is more garbage, but hey anyone can buy what they want...do I want to trust my life, the life of a family member, friend with something tested/proven and accepted by people that use them real world, or well something else...hell I'd buy a knockoff CAT from Amazon or ebay before a non-windless.
Jez
Veteran Member
The Rat is a controversial tourniquet. Many don't like it because it takes a little longer to apply and does not close and lock securely. It's a stretchy tube with a catch notch.
school marm
Senior Member
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Thank you and a special thanks to Reasonable Rascal for a most excellent book.
AlaskaSue
North to the Future
My kit is based on my police officer son's pack, established by an amazing trainer for the Anchorage police department. His first day after FTO, he save a life using his training during an active shooter scenario. It's a very good, complete kit. Fortunately, my dear DIL - who is a PA - agreed to train me in some more advanced first aid, including sutures and even gave me a very good kit to add to my bag.
I want to continue my own training and try to keep my kit complete and up-to-date.
I want to continue my own training and try to keep my kit complete and up-to-date.
Reasonable Rascal
Veteran Member
Author-signed copies are available in either soft- or hardcover (B/W only).
I'm not going to wade into the tourniquet thing save to offer the latest and greatest recommends from the experts. From the Joint Trauma System (JTS) / Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care (CoTCCC):
https://books.allogy.com/web/tenant...ter6/bd1588fb-5d8b-46f9-b870-596dc411abef.pdf
Wife and I both have car kits as well as goodies by the case around the house. What some folks here are calling 'advanced' or 'high level' I tend to regard as just meeting general standards. Heinlein's admonition comes to mind: A man should be able to...
RR
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
Be careful with that suture kit, most of those needles for sewing someone back up are the wrong size.
That said it's called a Jump Kit NOT a blowout kit. I was an EMT for five years and worked in a trauma hospital ER during that time as well, and Dennis is correct most of the people here are far from qualified outside of applying pressure, a bandaid or calling 911. If you can swing it take a basic first aid course some time, look for one that includes the updated protocol for CPR.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
Actually, it's not a bad idea at all, especially if that big bleed is coming from the nose. Pads and tampons actually allow ER staff know much blood was loss. You get clotting by applying pressure which can be hard to do with a big bleed and all you have is a handful of rags or paper towels, and those won't inform you as to how much blood was lost. Btw one of those Always overnight super duty pads holds exactly one pint of blood.
1911user
Veteran Member
Some trauma medical related videos that may be of interest.
(9:57) - Top Misconceptions About Tourniquets - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r50-lWDsmcI
(4:13) - When you should use a TQ or Wound Pack?? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuyuJmEtTZ0
(7:49) - Building a K9 Kit For Your Dog - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFrMIrpVydQ
(6:16) - Trauma Dressing / Pressure Bandage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dr5yuoBOF4
(3:49) - Wound Packing Demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6np3RvDAWug
(4:39) - Halo vs Hyfin Chest Seals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppOXsk3NUD0
(10:45) - Budget Chest Seal (Making an Occlusive dressing) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjREGhuHJg
(5:24) - Gen 7 Combat Application Tourniquet C-A-T - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2ZAiA-iFIo
(8:14) - SWAT-Tourniquet Review - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wr9uwj2-i0
(9:57) - Top Misconceptions About Tourniquets - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r50-lWDsmcI
(4:13) - When you should use a TQ or Wound Pack?? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuyuJmEtTZ0
(7:49) - Building a K9 Kit For Your Dog - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFrMIrpVydQ
(6:16) - Trauma Dressing / Pressure Bandage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dr5yuoBOF4
(3:49) - Wound Packing Demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6np3RvDAWug
(4:39) - Halo vs Hyfin Chest Seals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppOXsk3NUD0
(10:45) - Budget Chest Seal (Making an Occlusive dressing) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjREGhuHJg
(5:24) - Gen 7 Combat Application Tourniquet C-A-T - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2ZAiA-iFIo
(8:14) - SWAT-Tourniquet Review - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wr9uwj2-i0
Repairman-Jack
Veteran Member
There has also been some hubbub with the guy that made it, including buying domain names that would direct CAT searches to his RATs crap where he had some write ups with failures of CAT TQs, which there were like GEN1 maybe 2 versions, the plastic windless failed on occasion (which was why years ago I went with the Gen 2 SOFTT as it has a metal windless. Currently in the Region 13 area of PA CAT is the go to TQ, the Region has passed out to most every EMS and Fire Dept that runs a certified QRS service.
1911user
Veteran Member
Something like this would be a good option. He's in Easley, SC and occasionally offers 1-day classes on trauma medicine. There is one May 25, but it shows full. Many of the youtube videos I posted in this thread are by him (skinny medic).
https://medicalgearoutfitters.com/products/may-25th-skinny-medic-trauma-class
Another option would be an EMT training class at a local community college, but that takes a semester or 2 worth of day or evening classes.
A "wilderness medical" training class should be valuable, but I'm not sure where to find those close to SE Virginia.
It's always a good idea to get as much local first aid training as possible. A broken bone or bad burn might not kill in under 10 minutes, but it still requires serious first aid help.
At a minimum, you can learn a lot from carefully selected youtube videos. It doesn't make you an EMT or replace hands-on training classes. Watch enough and you'll be way ahead of most people on what to do in a trauma medical situation.
1911user
Veteran Member
I had forgotten that a thread is bumped whenever someone votes in the poll. While it is bumped...
Per the poll, quite a few here have some kind of trauma kit and presumably the knowledge to use it, but there are others that could use additional med knowledge.
Bumpkin had a very good question about med training last night. I'm curious what the medical professionals here would consider for trauma med training. Same for first aid training.
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Admin type notice: once this thread falls to page 2 or 3 on Main, it will be moved by a mod to the Survival Medicine section of TB2K for future reference.
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Per the poll, quite a few here have some kind of trauma kit and presumably the knowledge to use it, but there are others that could use additional med knowledge.
Bumpkin had a very good question about med training last night. I'm curious what the medical professionals here would consider for trauma med training. Same for first aid training.
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Admin type notice: once this thread falls to page 2 or 3 on Main, it will be moved by a mod to the Survival Medicine section of TB2K for future reference.
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Start with a Red Cross first aid class. There should be CPR and AED training available nearby too - https://www.redcross.org/take-a-cla...es&gclid=CPGGxbKfnuICFVLjswod98cOyA&gclsrc=ds
Check your local community college for a basic EMT class. Here, the local rescue squad will pay your way all the way up to Paramedic if you volunteer for the unit. Your local unit might have a deal like that also. Training plus hands on in the field will really cement your skills and make you better at getting bled on by strangers.
Far as I know BTLS (basic trauma life support) comes next, then ATLS (advanced trauma life support). Or you can branch off to wilderness medical response, if that appeals to you - https://www.wildmed.com/wilderness-medical-courses/. And so on.
But get the basics first -
Check your local community college for a basic EMT class. Here, the local rescue squad will pay your way all the way up to Paramedic if you volunteer for the unit. Your local unit might have a deal like that also. Training plus hands on in the field will really cement your skills and make you better at getting bled on by strangers.
Far as I know BTLS (basic trauma life support) comes next, then ATLS (advanced trauma life support). Or you can branch off to wilderness medical response, if that appeals to you - https://www.wildmed.com/wilderness-medical-courses/. And so on.
But get the basics first -
I read that using the magneto spark from a lawnmower to the wound will so something to the venom. Brown recluse bites, too. Can't recall where I read it.