CORONA Main Coronavirus thread

Heliobas Disciple

TB Fanatic
Not to argue but the CDC said specifically they were not going to try to contain but manage the virus. They lost the containment window when they refused to pay attention to the seriousness of the Chinese secondary response. In my opinion it's as if they intentionally let the virus get a foot hold in the Contenital USA. They have mishandled this just as they mishandled the HIV situation. They are inept.

Your opinion is noted and may be the correct one in the long run .

I haven't listened to their press call in the last few days, but I think I read they are going into a hybrid containment/management phase now, so you're right about it no longer being only about containment anymore. For the first month it was all about containment. They were about 2 weeks behind this thread when we first were posting here (publicly at least) but once they caught up to us they were on top of it and continue to be on top of it.

As for whether they (specifically the CDC) intentionally let or are letting the disease into the country? I understand there is that woo position floating around but I don't buy it. If you want to argue the evil one-wolrd globalists had a hand in the outbreak I'm more open to listening. But I do not believe the CDC is purposefully trying to spread this disease. I won't assign nefarious motives to what may just be incompetence and normalcy bias run amok. And I agree with you there seems to be a lot of incompetence in some of their earlier decisions (letting everyone off the boat in NJ immediately comes to mind). They're a bureaucracy, a gov't bureaucracy at that, which is even worse, and they all have their reputations to protect so no one wants to rock the boat. You're not going to get ahead of the curve, revolutionary action out of them. :shk:

HD
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
When this gets a go on things like power and water will get shut off due to staffing problems.

The food thing is simple! If you wait for things to hit you in the face then stocking up will be too late as everything will be sold out.

Look with Wuhan it has an international airport that would have been in full usage for about a month before limited shutdown. If one thinks this is not well spread already then one is a fool. Besides this the virus has to be all over the place in China with international flights going out everywhere.
 

Heliobas Disciple

TB Fanatic
marsh posted this video on her reference thread and I think it should be added to this thread as well. it's not very long but it's worth the time to watch:

ETA: he's asked about the April date being used by Pres Trump. You can see the leftists are practically licking their lips over devouring Trump over this statement already and it's not even April. He gives a more realistic answer but doesn't criticize the President or his statement either. Well done Dr. Fauci.

More than 40 Americans on quarantined cruise ship test positive for coronavirus
Feb 16, 2020
5min 23sec
Face the Nation

The National Institutes of Health's Dr. Anthony Fauci talks about the impact of coronavirus on the United States and the evacuation of Americans from a quarantined cruise ship in Japan.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4SIYgzjCvw
 

DuckandCover

Proud Sheeple
Seal them off completely, seal off every family unit for several months, we may need clean breeding stock to repopulate the earth.

That sounds quite extreme.

Wasn't smallpox more deadly and more easily transmitted than this virus? Not to mention, it occurred during periods of much less advanced healthcare. I don't believe we had to repopulate after that. I dunno......I guess we'll see.
 
who is this Mike 111 and who does he know- ? I personally, despite careful consideration given to Helios' well argued POV, still believe DJT has the best and brightest on this, and has the info he needs. I could be wrong, of course, but...I have never been so confident that the interest of the lil guy would be protected. Guess that's the rub, we're going to have to pay a price for this in blood sweat and many many many tears. No matter what. :: shruggin :: insertin' serenity prayer ::
Michael111.
Sometimes starts threads in BS.
Members have various opinions.
 

library lady

Veteran Member
Dr. Anthony Fauci of the NIH on Face the Nation this morning: Technically, COVID-19 not a pandemic yet.

Dr. Fauci: "Well, a pandemic is when you have multiple countries throughout the world that have what's called sustained transmission from person to person to person, multiple generations. Right now, there are 24 countries in which there were over five hundred cases. Several of them are starting to get to the second and third transmission. So technically speaking, the WHO wouldn't be calling this a global pandemic, but it certainly is on the verge of that happening reasonably soon unless containment is more successful than it is right now..."

Also, about the Americans evacuated from the cruise ship in Japan:

DR. FAUCI: Well, 40 of them have gotten infected. They are not going to go anywhere. They're going to be in hospitals in Japan. People who have symptoms will not be able to get on the evacuation plane. Others are going to be evacuated starting imminently to Air Force bases in the United States. If people on the plane start to develop symptoms, they'll be segregated within the plane. So there's a very firm plan with this 747 that is going to take these passengers now who have been there. If you want to stay in Japan, your last chance would be to get on the plane and leave or you stay there. When you come back to the United States, importantly, they're still subjected to a 14 day quarantine. And the reason for that is that the degree of transmissibility on that cruise ship is essentially akin to being in a hot spot. A lot of transmissibility on that cruise ship.

Transcript from the show: Transcript: Dr. Anthony Fauci on "Face the Nation," February 16, 2020
 
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That sounds quite extreme.

Wasn't smallpox more deadly and more easily transmitted than this virus? Not to mention, it occurred during periods of much less advanced healthcare. I don't believe we had to repopulate after that. I dunno......I guess we'll see.
We were able to vaccinate against smallpox, apparently it doesn’t mutate like other bugs. We could wipe it out.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
Dr. Fauci: "Well, a pandemic is when you have multiple countries throughout the world that have what's called sustained transmission from person to person to person, multiple generations. Right now, there are 24 countries in which there were over five hundred cases.

These are government-approved don't-startle-the-herd numbers. Keep them in perspective.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
I told you guys about this yesterday......
Oh, SH!T! That's @60 miles from us... and we were just in that exact area Thursday for an eye doctor's appointment for hubby! Worse, he *needs* to go back in 2 weeks for one more procedure... and given that he got about 80% improvement in his vision from what they did Thursday, I'd *really* hate to tell him he has to put it off for several months...

Looks like those masks are going to get used after all...

Summerthyme
 

Heliobas Disciple

TB Fanatic

I told you guys about this yesterday......

Yes you did. Thank you.

Here's the tweet and a youtube link for the video in that tweet:

Max Howroute @howroute
12:12 PM · Feb 16, 2020

Is CDC hiding #coronavirus cases in New York? This voicemail message was left for Dr. Paul Cottrell and later posted on his YouTube channel.


Coronavirus Emergency Alert CDC hiding NYS cases by Dr Paul Cottrell
Feb 15, 2020
52 seconds
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ju7_abh5gc&feature=emb_title
 

Ravenwatch

Contributing Member
If China dumped bonds the Fed would print money to buy them, to keep the price up.
Exactly!, all central banks around the work are now buying up all the debt that is in the world. ( they are all going to be the lenders and borrowers of last resort.)
 

Heliobas Disciple

TB Fanatic
Dr. Anthony Fauci of the NIH on Face the Nation this morning: Technically, COVID-19 not a pandemic yet.

Dr. Fauci: "Well, a pandemic is when you have multiple countries throughout the world that have what's called sustained transmission from person to person to person, multiple generations. Right now, there are 24 countries in which there were over five hundred cases. Several of them are starting to get to the second and third transmission. So technically speaking, the WHO wouldn't be calling this a global pandemic, but it certainly is on the verge of that happening reasonably soon unless containment is more successful than it is right now..."

Also, about the Americans evacuated from the cruise ship in Japan:

DR. FAUCI: Well, 40 of them have gotten infected. They are not going to go anywhere. They're going to be in hospitals in Japan. People who have symptoms will not be able to get on the evacuation plane. Others are going to be evacuated starting imminently to Air Force bases in the United States. If people on the plane start to develop symptoms, they'll be segregated within the plane. So there's a very firm plan with this 747 that is going to take these passengers now who have been there. If you want to stay in Japan, your last chance would be to get on the plane and leave or you stay there. When you come back to the United States, importantly, they're still subjected to a 14 day quarantine. And the reason for that is that the degree of transmissibility on that cruise ship is essentially akin to being in a hot spot. A lot of transmissibility on that cruise ship.

Transcript from the show: Transcript: Dr. Anthony Fauci on "Face the Nation," February 16, 2020

Thank you for the link to the transcript. Here's the part about the April date:

MARGARET BRENNAN: The president has said at least twice so far that the virus could tick down in these warmer months ahead. He indicated--

DR. FAUCI: Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --President Xi told him that.

DR. FAUCI: Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Is that how the virus actually works?

DR. FAUCI: This virus, we don't know. But it is not unreasonable to say that influenza, for example, which peaks in the winter, you would certainly expect it by March, April and May to taper down, as well as typical common cold coronaviruses. That's not an unreasonable statement. However, we do not know what this particular virus is gonna do so. So we would think it would be a stretch to assume that it's going to disappear with the warm weather. We don't know that. It's completely unknown.

 

library lady

Veteran Member
Just across the border from us--and they take in lots of refugees!

CANADA: National standards to protect healthcare workers from COVID-19 too low, nurses’ unions say

The Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions is warning that the federal public health agency’s guidelines to protect front-line health-care workers from outbreaks of diseases like the novel coronavirus don’t go far enough, and might be putting them and patients at risk.

The standards, which the Public Health Agency of Canada updated last week, lay out the precautions health-care workers should take when assessing and treating a patient with a possible case of the coronavirus, including what protective equipment should be used.

The public health agency has committed to updating the guidelines as they learn more about the disease the World Health Organization has named COVID-19, which has sickened more than 64,000 people worldwide.
Linda Silas, president of the labour organization, says the safety protocols are inadequate compared to those in Ontario and some other countries.

Silas said the standards assume the coronavirus can’t spread through the air — rather than through droplets — but she contends the science isn’t settled on that front and the government should be taking greater care until they can be 100 per cent sure.

“When we do not know, we have to go for the best precautions for workers,” said Silas.

Nurses, doctors and other medical staff who come into contact with patients must be protected, not only for their own health but to stop the potential spread of the virus, she said.

“We need to make it clear that if health care workers are not safe, then patients are not safe,” said Silas, who has written to federal Health Minister Patty Hajdu about her concerns.

The Ontario government released its own guidelines calling for constant use of disposable respirators when interacting with a potential coronavirus patient, while the federal guidelines require only a surgical mask unless certain medical procedures are being done.

The federal protocols are in line with the World Health Organization, but the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and its European counterpart have also recommended higher standards and a greater degree of precaution.

 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Yes, that was ultimately and thankfully true. However, the human race survived for hundreds of years with the smallpox virus floating around before we developed a vaccine.
And most families lost a number of children to it, and almost all adults in Europe at one point had hideous scars on their faces and other extremities - people don't realize this because painters avoided showing them and heavy makeup was popular among the upper classes (because of the scaring).

Adults could also catch it and nearly die/be disabled - Queen Elizabeth the First almost died from it when still quite young, and of course, it (along with measles) may have killed up to 90 percent of everyone in North America (Native Americans).
 

DuckandCover

Proud Sheeple
And most families lost a number of children to it, and almost all adults in Europe at one point had hideous scars on their faces and other extremities - people don't realize this because painters avoided showing them and heavy makeup was popular among the upper classes (because of the scaring).

Adults could also catch it and nearly die/be disabled - Queen Elizabeth the First almost died from it when still quite young, and of course, it (along with measles) may have killed up to 90 percent of everyone in North America (Native Americans).


True. It was a horrible disease. Good riddance.
 

Carl2

Pass it forward...
This article from Science News about bats is interesting:
Fair use cited

Filed under Life
Creator Erin Garcia de Jesus

When it comes to viruses, ones from bats are weirdly deadly — at least to humans.
The mammals can carry many viruses with the potential to cause serious diseases in people, including rabies, Ebola, Nipah, severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS, and others. Bats rarely get sick from those viruses. Why these pathogens tend to be so dangerous when they infect other animals has been a mystery.
Previous work suggests that a bat’s immune system is especially adapted to tolerate viruses, thanks in part to its ability to limit inflammation. Now a study using cells grown in a lab hints that to counter a bat’s immune defenses, these viruses have gotten good at spreading rapidly from cell to cell. That means that when they get into animals without a similarly strong immune system, the viruses are particularly adept at causing serious damage, researchers report February 3 in eLife.
The study is “an important piece of the puzzle in understanding why viruses [from bats] may be emerging and impacting people and other animals,” says Kevin Olival, a disease ecologist with EcoHealth Alliance in New York City, who wasn’t involved in the research. “There’s a lot we can learn from bats about their immune system and take some of that information to think about our own health and developing our own therapeutics” against viruses, he says.
Scientists have pinpointed bats as potential sources of several viral outbreaks in humans. Insect-eating bats may have been the source of the 2014–16 Ebola outbreak in West Africa (SN: 12/31/14). Egyptian fruit bats (Rousettus aegyptiacus) harbor Marburg virus, a hemorrhagic virus related to Ebola. Other bat species are reservoirs of SARS-like coronaviruses, possibly including one that sparked an ongoing outbreak in China (SN: 1/24/20).
In the new study, Cara Brook, an ecologist at the University of California, Berkeley, and her colleagues investigated how two bat viruses — Ebola and Marburg — might spread upon infecting one of three types of cells in the lab. One cell type, from African green monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops), lacks an antiviral immune response. The other two are from bats: One type from the Egyptian fruit bat sparks an immune response only if infected with a pathogen, and the other, from black fruit bats (Pteropus alecto), is probably always in an antiviral state and “perpetually trying to fight viruses,” Brook says.
The team infected the cells with viruses engineered to be coated with the proteins that either Ebola or Marburg use to enter and infect cells. The researchers then monitored viral spread among cells. While the monkey cells were completely destroyed by the viruses, more of the bat cells survived.
The team then re-created their lab experiments using mathematical simulations to calculate how fast the viruses infected other cells and whether antiviral defenses played a role in their spread. Viruses replicating under pressure from a bat’s immune system have a high rate of cell-to-cell spread within a host, the simulations showed. That rapid spread in bat cells helps the viruses combat bat cells’ antiviral properties and quickly mounted defenses, the team says. Although the viruses spread more slowly in the monkey cells, the cells were swiftly killed.
Pathogens can only spread so fast internally before they kill their host, Brook says. But if the host has an immune system that can defend against rapidly spreading viruses, a virus might evolve to infect new cells even faster than it would in a different environment, in a sort of arms race. And if a quick-spreading virus from bats were to infect another species that lacked batlike defenses? “It would probably cause extreme virulence,” Brook says.
There are more than 1,400 bat species in the world, Olival says, and the current study focused on only two. “It’s important to remember that all other bat species might have totally different responses as well,” he says.
Olival is also curious how the findings might apply to other animals that can carry deadly viruses, such as rodents. “Bats are not the only mammal that are reservoirs for human zoonotic viruses,” he says. “The question is not only how do bats cope with viruses, but how do other mammal species that are reservoirs cope with the viruses they carry?”
While bats do carry lots of deadly viruses, “I don’t want people to walk away wanting to kill all the bats,” Brook says. Closely related animals are more likely to transmit viruses to one another, and bats and humans are not close relatives. “Bat viruses are not likely to spill over to human populations. It’s just that when they do, they are virulent.”
 

Texican

Live Free & Die Free.... God Freedom Country....
True. It was a horrible disease. Good riddance.

DaC,

Small pox was eliminated, but the majority of the world's population has not been vaccinated for small pox and it is not known to the general public if those of us that were vaccinated still remain immune to small pox....

Multiple nations have viable specimens of small pox in their biological weapons labs.... Small pox could go the way of the Wuhan Virus and be released even if accidentally and the world will be infected....

There are few small pox vaccines available around the world....

We are living in interesting times....

Texican....
 

Texican

Live Free & Die Free.... God Freedom Country....
Operation Dark Winter
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Operation Dark Winter
LocationAndrews Air Force Base, Maryland, U.S.
DateJune 22, 2001 – June 23, 2001

Operation Dark Winter was the code name for a senior-level bio-terrorist attack simulation conducted from June 22–23, 2001.[1][2][3] It was designed to carry out a mock version of a covert and widespread smallpox attack on the United States. Tara O'Toole and Thomas Inglesby of the Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies (CCBS) / Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), and Randy Larsen and Mark DeMier of Analytic Services were the principal designers, authors, and controllers of the Dark Winter project.

Dark Winter was focused on evaluating the inadequacies of a national emergency response during the use of a biological weapon against the American populace. The exercise was solely intended to establish preventive measures and response strategies by increasing governmental and public awareness of the magnitude and potential of such a threat posed by biological weapons.

Dark Winter's simulated scenario involved an initial localized smallpox attack on Oklahoma City, Oklahoma with additional smallpox attack cases in Georgia and Pennsylvania. The simulation was then designed to spiral out of control. This would create a contingency in which the National Security Council struggles to determine both the origin of the attack as well as deal with containing the spreading virus. By not being able to keep pace with the disease's rate of spread, a new catastrophic contingency emerges in which massive civilian casualties would overwhelm America's emergency response capabilities.

The disastrous contingencies that would result in the massive loss of civilian life were used to exploit the weaknesses of the U.S. health care infrastructure and its inability to handle such a threat. The contingencies were also meant to address the widespread panic that would emerge and which would result in mass social breakdown and mob violence. Exploits would also include the many difficulties that the media would face when providing American citizens with the necessary information regarding safety procedures

Read the link, for it will tell you that we are no better in fighting a biological attack/infection now as then....

If you catch the Wuhan Virus, you will either live or die.... The only two outcomes....

No one knows if the efforts outside of China will stop the Virus and it will take another two plus weeks to see if the efforts have an impact....

If you are not sufficiently prepared, time is short for it appears that the Virus will not be contained....

Texican....
 

Terrwyn

Veteran Member
I did. I am a teacher and have asthma, so do get them every year. School brings a local pharmacy nurse in to administer. Also had the pneumonia shot a couple of years ago.
I had them for years until 11 years ago I developed guiliane barr from it. I know that is wrong spelling so don't beat me up.
I am where I am today because of that shot. It is what it is and I live with it but just wish I could still get a flu shot.
 

Border Collie Dad

Flat Earther
Look with Wuhan it has an international airport that would have been in full usage for about a month before limited shutdown. If one thinks this is not well spread already then one is a fool. Besides this the virus has to be all over the place in China with international flights going out everywhere.

And still, how many dead outside China?
Still 4 and one being a Chinese tourist in Paris?

You are being played for forced vaccinations and more government control.
 

Carl2

Pass it forward...
Here is a blog post about the Wuhan coronavirus; important graphics did not copy over so see link for them:
Fair use cited

Saturday, February 15, 2020
The Covid19 death rate is much higher than 2%
The Covid19 death rate is much higher than 2%

I understand why Moldbug wanted to write a post on the coronavirus. As usual, Moldbug was ahead of the curve. The reason is that he reads sources that other people don’t read. If you read the same as everyone else, you think the same as everyone else. This is the main (respectable) reason I’m on twitter, (other than the shitposting which is like terrible cheap carbs of reading material). 95% of it is garbage, but the remaining 5% is stuff you just don’t find anywhere else.

And what Moldbug, and MorlockP, and Loki Julianus and some others have figured out is that there’s a decent chance that this is the start of the shit hitting the fan, but nobody in the west seems much concerned yet. It’s a fascinating insight into how people respond to gradually unfolding disaster. We expect disaster to strike out of the blue. One day, the Soviets nuke us, or an asteroid strikes. Or, failing that, we expect to see a fairly rapid and linear growth of things getting worse, like in a disaster movie where the plot has to unfold in a predictable manner to all be wrapped up in 90 minutes.

What our instincts don’t work well for, however, is exponential growth. It just doesn’t fit people’s casual intuitions about what’s going to happen. The probably mythical story about the inventor of chess is that he asked to be paid as a reward by the king in a grain of rice for the first square, two grains for the second square, four for the third square, and so on. Of course, the point of the story is that the king was an idiot and by the end figured out he couldn’t possible pay. Ha ha ha. Nobody would be that dumb.

Well, here’s some grains of rice accumulating.



If you take the number of coronavirus cases reported, it’s close to an exponential curve. Not quite, however. If you plot things on a log scale, you can see the rate of increase in reported cases slowing down.



By eyeballing the log scale graph, you can see that things started to decline starting around Jan 30th. If you run a regression of log number of cases on number of days since outbreak, from Jan 30th until February 13th, you get a coefficient on time of 0.126, or 12.6% growth per day. If you want to be conservative, and just use the February 5th – 11th data, excluding the big jump on February 12th when they changed reporting standards, you still get an average growth of 0.078, or 7.8% growth per day. The R2 of this regression is 0.98, by the way, so this is a shockingly good fit. If you use the whole period, you get a whopping 19.9% average growth per day. And even with the slowdown, the R2 is still over 0.92.

Since these are only rough data, because God knows how many unreported cases there are, suppose the number of cases is growing about 10% per day. There’s a rule of thumb for turning growth rates into doubling times called the rule of 72. Divide 72 by the growth rate and you get a decent estimate of the doubling time. So in this case, 72/10 = 7.2. In other words, on current trends we expect the number of cases to double every week. Even at the low rate of 7.8%, the number of cases is expected to double in around 9 days. We won’t use this rule exactly, but it’s pretty good for thinking about intuition.

And this causes all sorts of weird mistakes. One, which I think is underappreciated by most people, is wildly distorted estimates of the death rate.

The number that keeps getting currently quoted in the press is a death rate of around 2%. As of February 13th, there have been 1,384 deaths out of 64,473 cases, according to worldometer. This gives a death rate of 2.15%. Which sounds pretty encouraging. It seems like you have to get very unlucky to actually die from it.

But the strange thing is, there’s another, smaller set of people talking about a death rate of 16%. What’s that? Well, it’s the ratio of deaths (1,384) to closed cases (8,566), or 16.16%.

Now, you might look at it be concerned about the definition of closed cases. Maybe they’re just very reluctant to declare someone cured, so there’s lowball numbers here (whereas they’re less reluctant to declare someone dead). Many of the diagnosed will eventually recover, but it takes ages to classify them as healthy again. So no big deal! 16% is too high, and the true number will be much lower.

Well, here’s a pretty strong reason to prefer the ratio using closed cases. From the descriptions you read about the progression of cases in places like Hong Kong, the disease generally takes 2-3 weeks from diagnosis to actually kill you.

Why is this a big deal?

Because the number of cases is growing at around 8-10% a day. And as long as that holds, the number of deaths will always be lagging the total number of cases in the growth phase. The death rate actually ought to be compared with the number of cases from 2-3 weeks earlier, because that’s the number of people who could have reasonably died by this point. It’s also the expectation of the fraction of currently alive new cases who will eventually die. Again, this may seem like pedantry. Except that the number of cases is growing 8% per day!

Let’s start with lower bounds. Assume that average growth in cases is conservatively 7.8%. Also, let’s assume the disease kills you quickly, on average in two weeks (which is optimistic for the purposes of our estimated death rate being on the low side). In this case, the number of cases in the denominator is too high by a factor of e^(14*0.078) = 2.98. So the true death rate will end up being 2.15*2.98 = 6.42%

If it takes 2.5 weeks on average to kill you, the death rate will end up being 2.15* e^(17.5*0.078) = 8.43%.

But we’re using a pretty conservative estimate of growth rates. Suppose you take dates since February 5th, but include the increase in cases on Feb 12th and 13th. Then the average growth rate is 9.75%. Add a 2.5 week average time to death, and the death rate is actually 2.15*e^(17.5*0.0975) = 11.85%. If the disease takes three weeks on average to kill you, the true death rate is 16.67%. Which sounds very close to the death rate from closed cases. Add in growth rates from the earlier period, and the numbers get even higher.

Plug in your own assumptions or data fiddling, and the answers fall right out. There’s obviously big standard errors on this stuff. But one thing is pretty clear. There is more than enough evidence at this point, no matter how you cut it, that the overall death rate is going to be a lot higher than 2%. I’m betting on 5-10%. You ought to be making plans accordingly.

This doesn’t tell you about the rate of transmission, of course, either in China or the US. Maybe we’ll lucky, and it won’t turn into a pandemic outside China. Want to bet on that?

The good news from all this is that most people don’t care about China, haven’t read reports of any major outbreak in the US, and so aren’t really concerned. Which means that if you do think that there’s a non-trivial chance that the porridge may totally hit the propeller in a month or two, it’s still relatively easy to buy at least several months of storable food supplies. Amazon will still deliver them in a few days. Prices will be the same as normal. The guy delivering them has a very low chance of having the coronavirus. Maybe those things will still be true in three months. Maybe they won’t.

For the sake of a few hundred bucks, you’d be mad not to. You want to have a viable strategy in place to be able to not leave your house for an extended period of time. This is just basic finance. You want to hedge left tail outcomes, especially if the outcome is a catastrophe, and the cost of hedging it is very cheap. Surely everyone who understands finance is doing this, right?

Ha ha, no, of course they’re not. We’ve ignored the largest reason smart people don’t do this stuff. It’s unfashionable. It’s for loser, tin foil prepper types. Do you really want to be doing this stuff? Tell your friends you’ve started buying large quantities of canned food and you think they should too, and they’ll look at you like you’re a conspiracy theory loon. They’ll have a good laugh.

So did the King, when they were only up to the fourth chess square.
Posted by Shylock Holmes at 10:00 AM

=============
 

Tarryn

Senior Member
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ine-news-latest/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Coronavirus leaked footage: Disturbing video shows Chinese officials 'rounding up' people
Hubei

Chilling footage shows the moment a group of Chinese residents are rounded up in the afflicted Hubei (Image: IG)
DISTURBING footage leaked from inside China appears to show lines of people being rounded up by officials and led away, as Beijing ramps up its so-called "wartime measures".
By OLI SMITH
PUBLISHED: 13:03, Sat, Feb 15, 2020UPDATED: 13:18, Sat, Feb 15, 2020
Feb 15, 2020
Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare with EmailShare via Whatsapp

Chilling footage shows the moment a group of Chinese residents are rounded up in the afflicted Hubei province before being led away by guards. The leaked video takes place in broad daylight and in public. The footage surfaces as Chinese officials ramp up their so-called “wartime measures” used to combat the coronavirus outbreak.
The group being herded away are all bound together - the reason for which is unclear.

This comes after the New York Times reported that the county was planning a “mass round up” of anyone who has exhibited symptoms of the coronavirus.

JUST IN: Coronavirus shock: Cured patients reveal chilling reality of virus
The measures deployed across the Hubei province, which has a combined population of 11 million, has banned residents from leaving their homes unless they are directly involved in fighting the epidemic.

In Wuhan, the epicenter of the outbreak, authorities moved to seal all residential compounds.

Under the new emergency laws, only one member of each household could go out, and only once every three days, to buy groceries and other supplies.

On Friday, the Chinese National Health Commission reported 2,641 new cases of the coronavirus and 143 deaths.
The total number of confirmed cases is now 66,492 and the death toll in the China stands at 1,523.

Earlier today, China implemented strict new controls in the capital Beijing as the coronavirus continued to spread.

Chinese leader Xi Jinping acknowledged that the “black swan” of the coronavirus epidemic would make it difficult for the government to achieve its economic and social development goals for the year.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
Chilling footage shows the moment a group of Chinese residents are rounded up in the afflicted Hubei province before being led away by guards.

Maybe. I'm skeptical of outrageous footage. Too many hoaxes out there.
 

rondaben

Veteran Member
Thank you for your reply, but I'm still curious about the effectiveness of plasma from patients farther back in the mutational chain than subsequent daughter virii with the changes to the blueprint their replication mistakes would bring about. Wouldn't that indicate that patients from earlier cycles wouldn't necessarily possess antibodies to current patients anyway?

Its impossible to know what type of cross reactivity the plasma would have with later strains of the virus. There just isn't enough information. Honestly, the times it was tried in ebola it didn't really change much of the overall outcomes.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
Adults could also catch it and nearly die/be disabled - Queen Elizabeth the First almost died from it when still quite young

Can't recall the classic literature that had the female lead dying of it. Way graphic. I'm thinking Zola, but not sure.
 

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
NTD News‏ @news_ntd 3h3 hours ago

China destroys cash to fight coronavirus; Report reveals Xi knew about virus spread before Jan. 7

Folks better wake-up. Th' "inscrutable" rulin' chinee, 's a rotten, hydrophoby skunk. Th' bastid couldn't tell th' truth, if a hawgleg was stuck where th' sun don't shine... 'e an' his bunch leadin' them poor folk, need ta be hanged wi' a slow rope....

OA
 

Jubilee on Earth

Veteran Member
Here is a blog post about the Wuhan coronavirus; important graphics did not copy over so see link for them:
Fair use cited

Saturday, February 15, 2020
The Covid19 death rate is much higher than 2%
The Covid19 death rate is much higher than 2%

I understand why Moldbug wanted to write a post on the coronavirus. As usual, Moldbug was ahead of the curve. The reason is that he reads sources that other people don’t read. If you read the same as everyone else, you think the same as everyone else. This is the main (respectable) reason I’m on twitter, (other than the shitposting which is like terrible cheap carbs of reading material). 95% of it is garbage, but the remaining 5% is stuff you just don’t find anywhere else.

And what Moldbug, and MorlockP, and Loki Julianus and some others have figured out is that there’s a decent chance that this is the start of the shit hitting the fan, but nobody in the west seems much concerned yet. It’s a fascinating insight into how people respond to gradually unfolding disaster. We expect disaster to strike out of the blue. One day, the Soviets nuke us, or an asteroid strikes. Or, failing that, we expect to see a fairly rapid and linear growth of things getting worse, like in a disaster movie where the plot has to unfold in a predictable manner to all be wrapped up in 90 minutes.

What our instincts don’t work well for, however, is exponential growth. It just doesn’t fit people’s casual intuitions about what’s going to happen. The probably mythical story about the inventor of chess is that he asked to be paid as a reward by the king in a grain of rice for the first square, two grains for the second square, four for the third square, and so on. Of course, the point of the story is that the king was an idiot and by the end figured out he couldn’t possible pay. Ha ha ha. Nobody would be that dumb.

Well, here’s some grains of rice accumulating.



If you take the number of coronavirus cases reported, it’s close to an exponential curve. Not quite, however. If you plot things on a log scale, you can see the rate of increase in reported cases slowing down.



By eyeballing the log scale graph, you can see that things started to decline starting around Jan 30th. If you run a regression of log number of cases on number of days since outbreak, from Jan 30th until February 13th, you get a coefficient on time of 0.126, or 12.6% growth per day. If you want to be conservative, and just use the February 5th – 11th data, excluding the big jump on February 12th when they changed reporting standards, you still get an average growth of 0.078, or 7.8% growth per day. The R2 of this regression is 0.98, by the way, so this is a shockingly good fit. If you use the whole period, you get a whopping 19.9% average growth per day. And even with the slowdown, the R2 is still over 0.92.

Since these are only rough data, because God knows how many unreported cases there are, suppose the number of cases is growing about 10% per day. There’s a rule of thumb for turning growth rates into doubling times called the rule of 72. Divide 72 by the growth rate and you get a decent estimate of the doubling time. So in this case, 72/10 = 7.2. In other words, on current trends we expect the number of cases to double every week. Even at the low rate of 7.8%, the number of cases is expected to double in around 9 days. We won’t use this rule exactly, but it’s pretty good for thinking about intuition.

And this causes all sorts of weird mistakes. One, which I think is underappreciated by most people, is wildly distorted estimates of the death rate.

The number that keeps getting currently quoted in the press is a death rate of around 2%. As of February 13th, there have been 1,384 deaths out of 64,473 cases, according to worldometer. This gives a death rate of 2.15%. Which sounds pretty encouraging. It seems like you have to get very unlucky to actually die from it.

But the strange thing is, there’s another, smaller set of people talking about a death rate of 16%. What’s that? Well, it’s the ratio of deaths (1,384) to closed cases (8,566), or 16.16%.

Now, you might look at it be concerned about the definition of closed cases. Maybe they’re just very reluctant to declare someone cured, so there’s lowball numbers here (whereas they’re less reluctant to declare someone dead). Many of the diagnosed will eventually recover, but it takes ages to classify them as healthy again. So no big deal! 16% is too high, and the true number will be much lower.

Well, here’s a pretty strong reason to prefer the ratio using closed cases. From the descriptions you read about the progression of cases in places like Hong Kong, the disease generally takes 2-3 weeks from diagnosis to actually kill you.

Why is this a big deal?

Because the number of cases is growing at around 8-10% a day. And as long as that holds, the number of deaths will always be lagging the total number of cases in the growth phase. The death rate actually ought to be compared with the number of cases from 2-3 weeks earlier, because that’s the number of people who could have reasonably died by this point. It’s also the expectation of the fraction of currently alive new cases who will eventually die. Again, this may seem like pedantry. Except that the number of cases is growing 8% per day!

Let’s start with lower bounds. Assume that average growth in cases is conservatively 7.8%. Also, let’s assume the disease kills you quickly, on average in two weeks (which is optimistic for the purposes of our estimated death rate being on the low side). In this case, the number of cases in the denominator is too high by a factor of e^(14*0.078) = 2.98. So the true death rate will end up being 2.15*2.98 = 6.42%

If it takes 2.5 weeks on average to kill you, the death rate will end up being 2.15* e^(17.5*0.078) = 8.43%.

But we’re using a pretty conservative estimate of growth rates. Suppose you take dates since February 5th, but include the increase in cases on Feb 12th and 13th. Then the average growth rate is 9.75%. Add a 2.5 week average time to death, and the death rate is actually 2.15*e^(17.5*0.0975) = 11.85%. If the disease takes three weeks on average to kill you, the true death rate is 16.67%. Which sounds very close to the death rate from closed cases. Add in growth rates from the earlier period, and the numbers get even higher.

Plug in your own assumptions or data fiddling, and the answers fall right out. There’s obviously big standard errors on this stuff. But one thing is pretty clear. There is more than enough evidence at this point, no matter how you cut it, that the overall death rate is going to be a lot higher than 2%. I’m betting on 5-10%. You ought to be making plans accordingly.

This doesn’t tell you about the rate of transmission, of course, either in China or the US. Maybe we’ll lucky, and it won’t turn into a pandemic outside China. Want to bet on that?

The good news from all this is that most people don’t care about China, haven’t read reports of any major outbreak in the US, and so aren’t really concerned. Which means that if you do think that there’s a non-trivial chance that the porridge may totally hit the propeller in a month or two, it’s still relatively easy to buy at least several months of storable food supplies. Amazon will still deliver them in a few days. Prices will be the same as normal. The guy delivering them has a very low chance of having the coronavirus. Maybe those things will still be true in three months. Maybe they won’t.

For the sake of a few hundred bucks, you’d be mad not to. You want to have a viable strategy in place to be able to not leave your house for an extended period of time. This is just basic finance. You want to hedge left tail outcomes, especially if the outcome is a catastrophe, and the cost of hedging it is very cheap. Surely everyone who understands finance is doing this, right?

Ha ha, no, of course they’re not. We’ve ignored the largest reason smart people don’t do this stuff. It’s unfashionable. It’s for loser, tin foil prepper types. Do you really want to be doing this stuff? Tell your friends you’ve started buying large quantities of canned food and you think they should too, and they’ll look at you like you’re a conspiracy theory loon. They’ll have a good laugh.

So did the King, when they were only up to the fourth chess square.
Posted by Shylock Holmes at 10:00 AM

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This makes so much sense. I wondered why people were calculating death rate based on the total number of cases, when they’re adding several thousand new cases per day. That wouldn’t be accurate, because all the new cases from the past week or two haven’t even run their full course yet.

Scary stuff!
 
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