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Avian flu & infants--safe herbs??
- Thread starter Salal Sue
- Start date
Sue,... this is a tough question. The problem is, infants aren't really just "small adults"... their systems are immature, their brains are still developing, and it's possible they will metabolize various drugs differently from adults. Add in the "odd" occasional reactions.. (for one example, the permanent ugly staining of teeth by the antibiotic tetracycline in anyone given the drug under the age of 8)... and I don't think many herbalists are going to be comfortable giving blanket recommendations on what to give to babies.
That being said, probably most things you could safely use on healthy young adults could be used in small children... adjusted for body weight. And I'd dilute almost anything quite a bit even then.
I used catnip tea on my second son when he had colic so bad he screamed for 22 hours a day. The doctors didn't have any solutions, and I was about ready to lose what was left of my mind. It didn't cure him, but it made it possible for him to relax and sleep for several hours per day more than when he didn't get it. However, I had at least one doctor (it's been a LONG time.. memories are bit hazy) tell me that I was "risking his life" giving him that "unapproved drug"! LOL!
The idea of small children with a dangerous flu is scary. Barring some type of miracle drug, the only treatment is going to be symptomatic. Keeping them hydrated, as comfortable as possible, keeping their fever down below convulsion levels, getting calories in them which are burned rapidly from severe illness. Propping their crib mattress at an angle to help them breathe more easily... all the "old fashioned" TLC and nursing which is nearly a lost art, because we've gone to antibiotics and OTC meds instead.
Remember, NEVER give aspirin to any child with a virus, due to the chances of Reyes syndrome. I've seen conflicting reports on ibuprofen as far as that goes, but acetominophen is safe. One reason I make an elderberry syrup rather than a tincture is because it's better for children- easier to get them to take it, for one thing, and because I don't think alcohol is good for them. But we have to think about the possibilities of a cytokine storm in the young... and elderberry MIGHT contribute to that, if you don't take it early enough to reduce the viral load.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Summerthyme
That being said, probably most things you could safely use on healthy young adults could be used in small children... adjusted for body weight. And I'd dilute almost anything quite a bit even then.
I used catnip tea on my second son when he had colic so bad he screamed for 22 hours a day. The doctors didn't have any solutions, and I was about ready to lose what was left of my mind. It didn't cure him, but it made it possible for him to relax and sleep for several hours per day more than when he didn't get it. However, I had at least one doctor (it's been a LONG time.. memories are bit hazy) tell me that I was "risking his life" giving him that "unapproved drug"! LOL!
The idea of small children with a dangerous flu is scary. Barring some type of miracle drug, the only treatment is going to be symptomatic. Keeping them hydrated, as comfortable as possible, keeping their fever down below convulsion levels, getting calories in them which are burned rapidly from severe illness. Propping their crib mattress at an angle to help them breathe more easily... all the "old fashioned" TLC and nursing which is nearly a lost art, because we've gone to antibiotics and OTC meds instead.
Remember, NEVER give aspirin to any child with a virus, due to the chances of Reyes syndrome. I've seen conflicting reports on ibuprofen as far as that goes, but acetominophen is safe. One reason I make an elderberry syrup rather than a tincture is because it's better for children- easier to get them to take it, for one thing, and because I don't think alcohol is good for them. But we have to think about the possibilities of a cytokine storm in the young... and elderberry MIGHT contribute to that, if you don't take it early enough to reduce the viral load.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Summerthyme
Thanks Summerthyme. There has been lots of discussion about alternative remedies for flu, including avian flu, on several boards. I've tinctured elderberry and have various supplements like NAC, pinot noir, resveratrol and curcumin for cytokine storm.
Know you can't give "medical advice" and I don't want to get out of line here but is it OK to ask what would you do for an infant of yours? Would you give cod liver oil, which has been suggested as helping cytokine storm, for a child of yours under 2 years?
Guess I need to make some elderberry syrup; I'm sure you are right about the alcohol not being good for little ones.
Tonight I make the Master Tonic with horseradish, ginger, garlic, onions, habaneros, and unfiltered vinegar with mother. But this I don't think would be for young children! Yikes! Can't imagine it!!!
The infant populations is seldom, if ever, addressed.
Thank you very much for replying. Guess I study up on home nursing care.
If you get other ideas please post them as IMHO the little ones have been left out of the discussion.
Know you can't give "medical advice" and I don't want to get out of line here but is it OK to ask what would you do for an infant of yours? Would you give cod liver oil, which has been suggested as helping cytokine storm, for a child of yours under 2 years?
Guess I need to make some elderberry syrup; I'm sure you are right about the alcohol not being good for little ones.
Tonight I make the Master Tonic with horseradish, ginger, garlic, onions, habaneros, and unfiltered vinegar with mother. But this I don't think would be for young children! Yikes! Can't imagine it!!!
The infant populations is seldom, if ever, addressed.
Thank you very much for replying. Guess I study up on home nursing care.
If you get other ideas please post them as IMHO the little ones have been left out of the discussion.
Sue.... oh, boy. It's been a LONG time since I had little ones to worry about. (Youngest will turn 22 in a couple of weeks)
First, for anyone who has a choice (is pregnant or nursing now), nursing an infant is protective and health promoting... babies who are nursing have much lower incidences of almost all contagious illness. However- we have to think about the possibility that the mother might become ill and unable to nurse sufficiently. And I think it's also important that we think about how we'd be able to get the infant to take juice, etc... so any nursing infant should be at least familiar with a bottle now.. while it's not anything more than a matter of convenience. I remember what it was like trying to get a totally-breastfed infant to take anything at all from an artificial nipple. NOT fun!
Next, remember that RAW honey should never be given to infants under 12 months, due to the risk of botulism. So, if you are making an elderberry syrup for babies, use pasteurized honey. Ditto if using honey as a cough soother (which it's quite effective for)
I'd make sure I had plenty of juices to use for hydration.. probably feeding them diluted.
There is a (herbal based) product called guaifenisen which is an expectorant... it helps liquify mucous so it can be expelled, relieving congestion. It can be found by itself, as well as part of multi-symptom relief cough meds. (It never made much sense to me to use it AND a cough suppressant at the same time!) The bottle says to "ask your doctor" about using it on children under 2, but I believe it would be safe. It helps make the mucous less sticky.. and anyone who has watched a small child try to cough up thick, sticky mucous from bronchitis knows how painful that is.
I'd probably make sure I had a humidifier, but also something to use for steam (not just cold mist), and eucalyptus essential oil.. again, for helping relieve congestion.
From my reading, it doesn't seem that a cytokine storm will be as much of a danger in these tiny ones... their immune systems aren't as completely developed as in older children and young adults. I'd probably use the elderberry myself, starting to give it as soon as anyone in the house showed any hint of symptoms. Probably a dose of 1/2 teaspoon or so for a 15 pound baby, every 4 hours or so.
I don't see any real reasons why you couldn't use turmeric, etc in small children if they began showing symptoms of a cytokine storm, but getting it into them might be a problem. Since elderberry seems to inhibit viral replication, and hence, if used early, may be able to keep the amount of virus (and hence, the body's reaction to it) low, my focus is going to be on using elderberry early and often.
Also, although we *suspect* that the 1918 flu caused cytokine storm, that's based on somewhat ambiguous information- the reports of people turning "blue", etc. But you'll see that in anyone who is dying of severe pneumonia.. and we don't KNOW that H5N1 will act the same as the 1918 strain did.
I'd probably keep hawthorne on hand (berries or flowers and leaves)... to use as a gentle support for the heart of anyone who is ill. It can be used in infants... and might be a way to help one who is severely ill and whose heart is showing the strain. I don't believe it would have any harmful effects, and it can easily be given as a tea, added to juice or however they'll take it.
Fortunately, babies don't generally have the problems that older people do as far as not being able to sleep when they're ill. They don't usually show the agitation or restlessness. However, catnip is a mild sedative when used as a tea, and might be appropriate for one whose sleep is constantly disturbed by coughing or apparent aches and pains.
One thing that seemed to come up in several of the commentaries on the 1918 flu was that people who lived in COLD houses, with lots of fresh air (or whose doctors or nurses insisted on keeping their windows open) did MUCH better than those who stayed in warm, closed rooms. Obviously, it's important to keep the patients warm... but apparently they shouldn't be breathing warm air. So.... we need to consider having plenty of lightweight blankets and warm nightwear so we can keep fresh air circulating without chilling the patient. They should be easily washed and hopefully something which dries quickly... fleece would seem to be ideal.
This is a terrifying subject! I sure hope we never need to test any of these ideas out!
Summerthyme
First, for anyone who has a choice (is pregnant or nursing now), nursing an infant is protective and health promoting... babies who are nursing have much lower incidences of almost all contagious illness. However- we have to think about the possibility that the mother might become ill and unable to nurse sufficiently. And I think it's also important that we think about how we'd be able to get the infant to take juice, etc... so any nursing infant should be at least familiar with a bottle now.. while it's not anything more than a matter of convenience. I remember what it was like trying to get a totally-breastfed infant to take anything at all from an artificial nipple. NOT fun!
Next, remember that RAW honey should never be given to infants under 12 months, due to the risk of botulism. So, if you are making an elderberry syrup for babies, use pasteurized honey. Ditto if using honey as a cough soother (which it's quite effective for)
I'd make sure I had plenty of juices to use for hydration.. probably feeding them diluted.
There is a (herbal based) product called guaifenisen which is an expectorant... it helps liquify mucous so it can be expelled, relieving congestion. It can be found by itself, as well as part of multi-symptom relief cough meds. (It never made much sense to me to use it AND a cough suppressant at the same time!) The bottle says to "ask your doctor" about using it on children under 2, but I believe it would be safe. It helps make the mucous less sticky.. and anyone who has watched a small child try to cough up thick, sticky mucous from bronchitis knows how painful that is.
I'd probably make sure I had a humidifier, but also something to use for steam (not just cold mist), and eucalyptus essential oil.. again, for helping relieve congestion.
From my reading, it doesn't seem that a cytokine storm will be as much of a danger in these tiny ones... their immune systems aren't as completely developed as in older children and young adults. I'd probably use the elderberry myself, starting to give it as soon as anyone in the house showed any hint of symptoms. Probably a dose of 1/2 teaspoon or so for a 15 pound baby, every 4 hours or so.
I don't see any real reasons why you couldn't use turmeric, etc in small children if they began showing symptoms of a cytokine storm, but getting it into them might be a problem. Since elderberry seems to inhibit viral replication, and hence, if used early, may be able to keep the amount of virus (and hence, the body's reaction to it) low, my focus is going to be on using elderberry early and often.
Also, although we *suspect* that the 1918 flu caused cytokine storm, that's based on somewhat ambiguous information- the reports of people turning "blue", etc. But you'll see that in anyone who is dying of severe pneumonia.. and we don't KNOW that H5N1 will act the same as the 1918 strain did.
I'd probably keep hawthorne on hand (berries or flowers and leaves)... to use as a gentle support for the heart of anyone who is ill. It can be used in infants... and might be a way to help one who is severely ill and whose heart is showing the strain. I don't believe it would have any harmful effects, and it can easily be given as a tea, added to juice or however they'll take it.
Fortunately, babies don't generally have the problems that older people do as far as not being able to sleep when they're ill. They don't usually show the agitation or restlessness. However, catnip is a mild sedative when used as a tea, and might be appropriate for one whose sleep is constantly disturbed by coughing or apparent aches and pains.
One thing that seemed to come up in several of the commentaries on the 1918 flu was that people who lived in COLD houses, with lots of fresh air (or whose doctors or nurses insisted on keeping their windows open) did MUCH better than those who stayed in warm, closed rooms. Obviously, it's important to keep the patients warm... but apparently they shouldn't be breathing warm air. So.... we need to consider having plenty of lightweight blankets and warm nightwear so we can keep fresh air circulating without chilling the patient. They should be easily washed and hopefully something which dries quickly... fleece would seem to be ideal.
This is a terrifying subject! I sure hope we never need to test any of these ideas out!
Summerthyme
Little one's Ears ..
When bathing babies be very careful not to get water into their ears. Water can harbor many germs and infections. Also their ears can get milk in them when put down with bottles. It is very important not to get liquid into the ears...which can harbor and foster germs (or might have the bacteria in them to begin with according to water reports in most cities). Summerthyme; GREAT POST! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
When bathing babies be very careful not to get water into their ears. Water can harbor many germs and infections. Also their ears can get milk in them when put down with bottles. It is very important not to get liquid into the ears...which can harbor and foster germs (or might have the bacteria in them to begin with according to water reports in most cities). Summerthyme; GREAT POST! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!