Newsweek: Immigration busts working too well?

Dornroeschen

Inactive
Crossing the Line?

The economic price of Arizona's crackdown on illegal immigration.
Terry Greene Sterling
Newsweek Web Exclusive
Updated: 5:57 PM ET Apr 15, 2008

A year ago Roberto promised to pay a smuggler $1,400 for safe passage from the Mexican border to Arizona, where he heard there was plenty of work. After a punishing three-day trek through the desert, the 30-year-old Mexican citizen arrived in Phoenix and quickly obtained two jobs, one as a baker and one as a dishwasher. With his $580 weekly earnings, he paid off the smuggler and began sending money home to his wife and two children. He expected to live and work in Phoenix for years.

Like many of the state's estimated 450,000 undocumented immigrants, Roberto (who asked that NEWSWEEK withhold his last name) is reconsidering his plans. The reason: in January a controversial state law went into effect that harshly penalizes the 150,000 businesses that employ illegal workers. First offenders face a 10-day suspension of their business license, and second offenders may have their licenses revoked permanently. Meanwhile, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been targeting illegal immigrants in a series of recent sweeps in the Phoenix area. The law—and the sheriff—have harsh critics. On April 4 Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon asked the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate the sheriff for potential civil rights violations. Arpaio's sweeps are "publicity stunts in an election year," Gordon tells NEWSWEEK. "But they endanger the welfare of citizens and policemen alike."

Since the employer sanctions law went into effect, Roberto has been fired from one job because he had no documents. He quit his other job to seek higher-paying day labor, but that never panned out. Now he earns less than the meager $120 a week he made as a construction worker back in Mexico. Roberto and others like him are leaving the city and moving to other states or back across the border. While reliable statistics are impossible to come by, area businesses are starting to feel the resulting labor shortage.

The law isn't Roberto's only foe. Anti-illegal-immigration activists have targeted the north Phoenix day labor center where he and others look for work. One of the activists is Al Roglin, 54. For the past few weeks Roglin and several other protestors have been using video cameras to record the license plate numbers and car makes of anyone driving into the center who they suspect might be a prospective employer. Roglin hands the information over to Arpaio's office. "There isn't a single person here who is opposed to legal immigration," insists Roglin, who says illegal immigrants are "vermin" invading the nation.

Both sides of the politically charged immigration issue see the Arizona law as a test case. Business groups and immigrants' rights activists are challenging the constitutionality of the law in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. Julie Pace, a Phoenix attorney for business groups, says the law encourages businesses to use an unreliable federal database, called E-Verify, that wrongly passes some undocumented workers through the system, thus allowing them to work, while blocking other workers who actually have legal status. But the law's sponsor, state representative Russell Pearce, says the system is accurate and that the criticism is unwarranted. Pearce believes Arizona's new law will eventually be seen "the most effective and nondiscriminatory" anti-illegal-immigration law in the nation.

In the meantime, local businesses are suffering from an already tight labor market. Ann Seiden, a spokeswoman for the Arizona Chamber of Commerce, says the new law has had a "significant impact" on the migration of workers out of the state. "I can't emphasize enough that the labor shortage has been severe and continues to be severe," she says.

For example, David Jones, president of the Arizona Contractors Association, says about 35 percent of Arizona's 280,000 construction workers are Latinos, and even with a downturn in housing construction, it's hard to find workers. "We have created an atmosphere in which Latinos, whether legal or illegal, no longer feel welcome here," he says. The sheriff's sweeps involve deputies in unmarked and marked vehicles, on motorcycles, on horseback and in helicopters. Cars with Latino passengers are often stopped for minor violations, like broken taillights.

The "climate of fear in Arizona" has also caused longtime agricultural workers to leave, says Joe Sigg, director of government relations for the Arizona Farm Bureau, a statewide coalition of farmers and ranchers. In the Yuma area, where agricultural workers earn from $10 to $19 per hour, farmers couldn't find enough laborers to harvest their lettuce crop, Sigg says. Other farmers have stopped planting labor-intensive vegetables like lettuce in favor of mechanically harvested alfalfa and wheat, and some farmers are considering selling out altogether, he says. "If the agricultural industry can't get laborers, the land will be converted to other uses and we'll put our food production at the mercy of other countries," Sigg predicts.

The law's effects can also be seen in once thriving neighborhoods. Tom Simplot, a realtor and Phoenix City Council member who represents a heavily Latino district, blames the employer sanctions law and the fear caused by the sheriff's sweeps for driving immigrants out. Immigrant homeowners have "moved out in the middle of the night," he says, leaving behind empty houses that now attract vandals and drug dealers. Although there's no hard data yet, the sweeps have caused more migrants to leave the Phoenix area than other parts of the state, contends Michael Nowakowski, a Latino city council member. "It's scary and confusing and a waste of tax dollars," he says.

It will take six to nine months for the hard data from housing foreclosures and apartment rentals to confirm the exodus, says Phoenix economist Elliot Pollack. The true effect of migrant flight on the state's already tight labor force may be masked by the fact that Arizona is in the grips of its worst recession since the 1970s, Pollack says. "We know people have left town, but we don't know the effect, because the economy is weak anyway," he says.

The sheriff, who has concurrent jurisdiction to enforce laws in Phoenix and other towns in Maricopa County, says such criticism is unfounded; he's simply enforcing the law. Arpaio, who has worked out an agreement with federal authorities to catch undocumented immigrants, has turned over more than 11,300 illegal immigrants to the feds. Many of these immigrants were already in the county jail and were discovered during routine document checks. Arpaio's deputies have themselves arrested about 1,826 illegal immigrants. "I won't stop arresting illegals," Arpaio tells NEWSWEEK.

A proposed law allowing guest workers from other countries to enter the state legally is winding its way through the Arizona legislature. But it may not come soon enough for Roberto, who plans on returning to Mexico in a few weeks if he can't find work.

URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/132231
 

SouthernGal

"Don't retreat...reload"
Oh, Lord, spare me another sob story about the illegal invaders being made to OBEY OUR LAWS.
 

Attachments

  • wahhhhhhhhh.jpg
    wahhhhhhhhh.jpg
    32 KB · Views: 183

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I've said for years that if the US really wanted to deal with this problem, the solution was real serious penalties for the larger employers combined with a "good faith" exemption for small business. Small business or households say employing a maid, would only need to have photocopies of the documents the person gave them. Big employers (say over 10 people more or less) would HAVE to show they made sure the documents were VALID. If schools, hospitals and other places can contract out security checks to make sure their people are free of federal crimes etc., there should be a big market for companies that verify documents are legal. These companies should also be subject to fines and prosecution if they turn out to be passing off people whose papers are not legal.

The other side of the coin is, you really do have to have a legal guest worker program for short-term agricultural labor. That's because bad as the US economic system may be, there is no longer an underclass of US citizens who follow the harvests around looking for work. There are also terrible problems with things like worker housing (I was in California when laws were passed to make sure it was up to code, so instead they discovered people living on riverbanks because they had no more employee housing). Bottom line, unless things get so bad that WPA type "work camps" are set up for people to work the fields (with the government housing them and busing them about) it is unlikely that enough 2nd or 3rd generation folks will be found to do this work. Even most people who used to do it dreamed of quitting by age 40, if they didn't die first. And many saved enough to buy a small house some where "in the valley."

In the long run, the only way to get some Americans back into the fields might be to return to a system of smaller family farms (though even they needed "hired hands" during the harvest season). I don't see this happening unless things fall apart to the point that agribusiness can't function anymore.

However, there are ways to hire and enforce legal, short term work contracts, the will just hasn't been there to enforce it. Why bother when a company can go to Mexico and ship in an entire factory full of people who will work pretty much as slaves, not complain when housed 10 to a room and you can put on a bus if they get hurt. Or claim you don't know them if they end up in the health care system?

I don't blame people for crossing borders, if your children are hungry working to try to feed them is what anyone would do. But if work is scarce or hard to get, they will stop coming. Simple as that. I gather Mexico is already screaming they can't handle all the people coming back, but that's the point. Mexico could (and probably should) ask for help to feed their people if they need it, but just expecting to deal with the situation with a mass exodus North is not really a viable option anymore. The sad thing is, this problem is likely to get worse world wide before it gets better. Short of real space exploration, there are few real frontiers left where people can go.

The so-called "Dark-Ages" were largely a result of climate changes and population growth that pushed people in waves down from Northern Europe and the Asian Steps down onto "civilized" Southern Europe and Rome. In the long run, there was no stopping these people, some of whom came from land that had fallen into the sea or been washed away by raging rivers. When people are desperate enough, they will keep moving.

But as Arizona is showing, if they really have somewhere to go home to and it starts looking better than where they are not, sometimes they will return there.

Melodi
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
"...Big employers (say over 10 people more or less) would HAVE to show they made sure the documents were VALID. .."

Sounds good. Have the 'big' employees do the background checks. Sure saves on tax money, the gov could just lay off the Border Patrol and checkpoints.
 

AddisonRose

On loan from Heaven
Actually, I went on a shopping junket last weekend and found many local older teens/younger 20s kids who spoke English working in all the stores I went into. It was rather refreshing.

PS: And I am in Mexas -- oops, Texas!
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Since the employer sanctions law went into effect, Roberto has been fired from one job because he had no documents. He quit his other job to seek higher-paying day labor, but that never panned out. Now he earns less than the meager $120 a week he made as a construction worker back in Mexico. Roberto and others like him are leaving the city and moving to other states or back across the border.

Too bad, so sad. Now GET THE HELL OUTTA MY COUNTRY until you can come back here LEGALLY.

While reliable statistics are impossible to come by, area businesses are starting to feel the resulting labor shortage.

This proves one thing more clearly than any other:

AMERICA NEEDS SLAVERY IN ORDER TO FUNCTION PROPERLY.

You just can't call it slavery these days, but this FACT is the 800 lb gorilla in the living room....
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
For example, David Jones, president of the Arizona Contractors Association, says about 35 percent of Arizona's 280,000 construction workers are Latinos, and even with a downturn in housing construction, it's hard to find workers. "We have created an atmosphere in which Latinos, whether legal or illegal, no longer feel welcome here," he says. The sheriff's sweeps involve deputies in unmarked and marked vehicles, on motorcycles, on horseback and in helicopters. Cars with Latino passengers are often stopped for minor violations, like broken taillights.

You know, from reports I've heard (my kids during college, and stories they were told by others) a BIG part of the "labor shortage" is that anyplace the illegals are commonly hired is VERY antagonistic to American workers.

Whether or not it's official policy, the illegals usually speak only Spanish, ignore or harass the Americans, and in general make it a very uncomfortable place to work.

So, only someone who is truly desperate will even bother applying.

I suspect if they clean out the illegals, more American kids will be happy to supplement their allowances (especially as their parents are struggling with higher costs) and it will prove to be a self correcting problem.

Of course, they'll have to actually pay minimum wage- or more.

Summerthyme
 
Interesting, and this is only one State...............

If this doesn't open your eyes nothing will!

From the L. A. Times



1.40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10. 2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.


2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.


3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.


4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.


5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.


6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.


7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.


8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.


9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.


10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.

(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County . )



(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)


Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.


Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.


29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.


We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
AMERICA NEEDS SLAVERY IN ORDER TO FUNCTION PROPERLY.

No not slavery. It needs to pay the going local rate for labor.

The reason the Bush Administration (and most others) has been soft on immigration is that the upper classes benefit by lower labor costs. These rich folk (otherwise known as "the powers that be.") care not where the labor comes from and they care not if it's an American - you or a Mexican - them. And for a LONG time the government administrations got away with letting this issue slide since the general perception is this is "the land of opportunity" and "if you couldn't find a job then there must be something wrong with you."

That USED TO BE the reality. Back in the days when Henry Ford paid his workers DOUBLE the prevaling salary for assembly line work - just so Ford could be sure the workers would be able to go out and buy one of his own Model T products.

Call it noblesse-oblige if you will. In those days some wealthy knew which side their bread was buttered on.

Note the mindset shift. Not so today. With so much American work having been "outsourced" there's not much beyond the service economy to put bread on the table.

Laws of supply and demand make me sure the going rates for labor, both service and manufacturing, in the Phoenix area have increased. And keeping the money here is to ALL our benefit. Not just for some "connected to the system" fat-cat.

Best,
Joe
 

NoPlugsNM

Deceased
We ARE fools for letting this continue.

I would love to see all the percentages applied to the actual $$$ figures, that would speak volumes as to what this actually costs the US citizens and LEGAL immigrants. I would bet that these actual figures have a direct correlation to the budget shortfalls AND if illegals were rounded up and expelled the states would be more solvent.

One VERY SIMPLE change in the law detaching the ANCHOR BABIES would go a great distance to resolving how the illegals tap and drain our nation. Closing the border and actively maintaining that boundary would decrease the drain further.

Imagine how much money would no longer be supporting this mess and how that money could be used to benefit the legal immigrants and citizens? Staggering overall effect in many areas. Lower crime rates, less prison population, just a multitude of gains for law-abiding citizens in the overall.
 

Harbinger

Veteran Member
Since the employer sanctions law went into effect, Roberto has been fired from one job because he had no documents. He quit his other job to seek higher-paying day labor, but that never panned out. Now he earns less than the meager $120 a week he made as a construction worker back in Mexico. Roberto and others like him are leaving the city and moving to other states or back across the border.

Too bad, so sad. Now GET THE HELL OUTTA MY COUNTRY until you can come back here LEGALLY.

While reliable statistics are impossible to come by, area businesses are starting to feel the resulting labor shortage.

This proves one thing more clearly than any other:

AMERICA NEEDS SLAVERY IN ORDER TO FUNCTION PROPERLY.

You just can't call it slavery these days, but this FACT is the 800 lb gorilla in the living room....

Here! Here! + 1--Dennis. In response to Roberto and his employment woes...cry me a fricken river!!!!!:boohoo:
 

Oilpatch Hand

3-Bomb General, TB2K Army
The Article said:
Although there's no hard data yet, the sweeps have caused more migrants to leave the Phoenix area than other parts of the state, contends Michael Nowakowski, a Latino city council member. "It's scary and confusing and a waste of tax dollars," he says.

Are we absolutely certain he's not Irish? :lkick:
 

KKC

Veteran Member
IMO… Arizona is feeling the loss of labor??? What that tells me is it opens the doors for struggling American families to get a second or even third job so they can afford $4.00 per gallon gas, $4.00 per gallon milk and $5.00 a pound hamburger… Everything is going up… and you can bet your employer isn’t going to give you a 10% raise to offset this higher cost of living… so to make ends meet you have to supplement it… you make more money you’re going to spend it… Thus boosting the local economy… I’m very curious to see how this whole thing plays out… Provided the feds don’t come in and over ride it… If this works for Arizona you can bet other states are going to adopt it… so in theory it’s only a matter of time…

IMO...
 

mule skinner

Deceased
The thing I find interesting is that we were told that without the Mexican stoop labor to harvest the crops that Americans couldn't or wouldn't harvest that we would lose these crops and prices would rise.

Well, we still have Mexicans and prices are still rising. Also, we are now told that since the building trades are slow, the criminal aliens have less work. Let them work in the fields if the trades are slow.

Now we are told that only something like 3% work agriculture and the rest work at something else.

Like unemployment and inflation, we are lied to with the aid of the media. There is always a political angle being worked on us.
 

Irish

Veteran Member
In the Yuma area, where agricultural workers earn from $10 to $19 per hour

And if you really believe that they will pay that much, I have some ocean front property for sale here in the midwest.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Irish... actually, those numbers ARE possible. However... it's paid "by the piece" (box, bushel, crate, whatever) and to average $15 an hour, you'll be working your a** off... you don't straighten up between plants or rows, you move at top speed constantly... you won't see those workers taking even a 30 second break to drink bottled water, (and you won't see them "wasting time" walking to the end of the field to use the PortaPotty, one reason for some of the contamination issues).

I'm a dairy farmer, and I'll admit I couldn't do the work at that pace. VERY few Americans can.

Summerthyme
 
Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.


Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.


29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

OK, I'll bite on this one. My bullsh*t detector just went off. These percentages are made up...I mean, 29% of illegal aliens are on welfare? Come ON....assuming the widely accepted figure of 12 million illegals, that would make nearly 3 1/2 million....

Let's see some links to reputable sites that give backing to those numbers - otherwise we'll know that like 94.28% of statistics they were made up.....:whistle:
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
I've said for years that if the US really wanted to deal with this problem, the solution was real serious penalties for the larger employers combined with a "good faith" exemption for small business. Small business or households say employing a maid, would only need to have photocopies of the documents the person gave them. Big employers (say over 10 people more or less) would HAVE to show they made sure the documents were VALID. If schools, hospitals and other places can contract out security checks to make sure their people are free of federal crimes etc., there should be a big market for companies that verify documents are legal. These companies should also be subject to fines and prosecution if they turn out to be passing off people whose papers are not legal.

The other side of the coin is, you really do have to have a legal guest worker program for short-term agricultural labor. That's because bad as the US economic system may be, there is no longer an underclass of US citizens who follow the harvests around looking for work. There are also terrible problems with things like worker housing (I was in California when laws were passed to make sure it was up to code, so instead they discovered people living on riverbanks because they had no more employee housing). Bottom line, unless things get so bad that WPA type "work camps" are set up for people to work the fields (with the government housing them and busing them about) it is unlikely that enough 2nd or 3rd generation folks will be found to do this work. Even most people who used to do it dreamed of quitting by age 40, if they didn't die first. And many saved enough to buy a small house some where "in the valley."

In the long run, the only way to get some Americans back into the fields might be to return to a system of smaller family farms (though even they needed "hired hands" during the harvest season). I don't see this happening unless things fall apart to the point that agribusiness can't function anymore.

However, there are ways to hire and enforce legal, short term work contracts, the will just hasn't been there to enforce it. Why bother when a company can go to Mexico and ship in an entire factory full of people who will work pretty much as slaves, not complain when housed 10 to a room and you can put on a bus if they get hurt. Or claim you don't know them if they end up in the health care system?

I don't blame people for crossing borders, if your children are hungry working to try to feed them is what anyone would do. But if work is scarce or hard to get, they will stop coming. Simple as that. I gather Mexico is already screaming they can't handle all the people coming back, but that's the point. Mexico could (and probably should) ask for help to feed their people if they need it, but just expecting to deal with the situation with a mass exodus North is not really a viable option anymore. The sad thing is, this problem is likely to get worse world wide before it gets better. Short of real space exploration, there are few real frontiers left where people can go.

The so-called "Dark-Ages" were largely a result of climate changes and population growth that pushed people in waves down from Northern Europe and the Asian Steps down onto "civilized" Southern Europe and Rome. In the long run, there was no stopping these people, some of whom came from land that had fallen into the sea or been washed away by raging rivers. When people are desperate enough, they will keep moving.

But as Arizona is showing, if they really have somewhere to go home to and it starts looking better than where they are not, sometimes they will return there.

Melodi

uhhhh, MOST illegals are hired by teeny tiny businesses - your solution is no solution


THE solution is a process of summary deportation at any time a public official, including schools and police, come into contact with suspected illegals.
 

Caplock50

I am the Winter Warrior
Well, lets see...where to begin? Ok...

"Immigration busts working too well?"

Actually, newsweek, not well enough and not in enough of our States...but, thank you for asking. Now, go and tell it like it is.

Aw, what's the use? I've got a cold and just don't feel like wasting energy typing it all up...so I'm leaving it go here.
 

sssarawolf

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yes its not working well enough. They need to go home and if they really want to come here do it legally like so many others did over the years and do. They don't want to wait well pooo.
 
Enid

you are very naive and have no idea of the scope of the problem. The DAY after we passed proposition 187 in California, something like 49% of the school aged children did NOT go to grade school for two days.

That was over 10 years ago and I don't recall the exact number quoted in the San Jose Mercury News that week, but it was close or OVER half the children in San Jose.

Those children didn't go to school because their illegal parents kept them out fearing they would get turned in.

The crime statistics from California are accurate. 70% of the looters arrested during the Rodney King riots were MEXICANS here illegally, smashing, grabbing, beating.

The part about MEXICANS forcing out or beating up Americans on job sites is also accurate. They may act all polite and keep their eyes down when they are in their ones and two's, but once they start to dominate an area they make no bones about shoving Americans around, threatening, or killing them.

There is a town in Minn. called Hutchison. In that one town alone there is something like 3000 illegals. The local grocerie store has one of the best Mexican food sections I've ever seen anywhere outside of California. All the announcements in the store are in spanish and english (pisses me off no end).

Many members on this board have talked about cities and towns from one end of the country that are now 11% to 87% ILLEGAL MEXICANS.

This problem is HUGE.

so is the murder and rape and assault crime wave they bring with them.
 

Woolly

Veteran Member
"Immigration busts working too well?" That's not possible!

It won't be working too well until the last of the illegals are across the border in Old Mexico or in their homes in the Middle East.

IMO,

Woolly
 

Sooth

Veteran Member
uhhhh, MOST illegals are hired by teeny tiny businesses - your solution is no solution
THE solution is a process of summary deportation at any time a public official, including schools and police, come into contact with suspected illegals.
Big or small businesses, the Arizona solution, the Arizona law of busting businesses for hiring Illegals is working. They are leaving Arizona. They are going back to Mexico or to other states.

As to only small businesses?!? Don't think so. Remember that TSA hired hundreds of Illegals and then when caught had to fire them and reorganize. Tyson Foods. Major meat packing plants in Nebraska and other states. The list goes on and on. Agribusinesses are rampant with Illegals.
This is why the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and big business if fighting so hard to overturn the Arizona laws and the laws of any other state that even comes close to success in eliminating jobs for Illegals.

If there are no jobs, there is no income. If there is no income, there is no reason for them to be here. They leave. In droves.

Sooth
 

SassyinAZ

Inactive
OK, I'll bite on this one. My bullsh*t detector just went off. These percentages are made up...I mean, 29% of illegal aliens are on welfare? Come ON....assuming the widely accepted figure of 12 million illegals, that would make nearly 3 1/2 million....

Let's see some links to reputable sites that give backing to those numbers - otherwise we'll know that like 94.28% of statistics they were made up.....:whistle:

:whistle: sorry, I can't cut and paste it, here's a link to snopes verifying the sources and the accuracy of most statements, including the 2 that you specifically called bull on: http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Those figures and percentages didn't even make me blink. Actually, I'd go further and say the problem is even bigger than what is able to be documented.

I'm guessing you don't live in the west or southwest, eh?
 
Top