[POL/WOT] The Dysfunctional Society - a MUST READ

Kimber

Membership Revoked
Yes, I know this likely will move to the political SIG in short order. I'm hoping it will last on the main board for a little while, so people will read it and constructively comment. (Once it does get moved, then we can revert to bashiing each other over the head.)

FWIW - I think Mr. Shaffer's article is quite well written and that he is, unfortunately, quite correct as well.

David

=======================================

The Dysfunctional Society
by Butler Shaffer
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer79.html

Like the Titanic, the American ship-of-state has hit an iceberg, and it is not timely to ask the ship’s orchestra for an encore of "America the Beautiful!" A recurring theme in these articles is that the American branch of Western civilization is in a state of complete collapse, and that only a fundamental change in our thinking about the nature and forms of social behavior can reverse our destructive course. I return to this topic not because I enjoy playing Cassandra – the "disaster lobby" is already packed – but because I am unable to count myself among the "ignorance is bliss" crowd that would prefer such probing questions as whether Janet Jackson should be fined for exposing her breast on television; the propriety of Arnold Schwarzenegger’s "girly man" comment; or whether gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry.

The hurried enactment of the Patriot Act, the creation of a Department of Homeland Security, and the wholesale expansion of police powers, were reactions of the political establishment to the realization that it had lost the support and respect of millions of Americans. You may recall, in those pre-9/11 years, the increased interest in political secession; private militias; and the emergence of systems of education, health-care, and dispute resolution, that challenged politically-dominated practices. Even President Clinton lamented the fact that so many Americans "hate their government," while his wife was scheming for ways to restrain the unhampered liberty of the Internet, which functioned contrary to the establishment’s institutionally-defined and controlled news and information sources.

You may also recall how, immediately after 9/11, most Americans quickly got back into line and, emulating members of Congress, fell to their knees reciting, as their new catechisms, whatever unfocused and dishonest babbling oozed from the lips of George W. Bush. Flag manufacturing suddenly became a major growth industry, as the faithful lined up to purchase and display this symbol of unquestioning obedience to state power. Fear – carefully nurtured with a steady diet of "warnings," color-coded "alerts," and, that scariest of all specters, those "unknown" forces of which we were told to be constantly aware – laid claim to the souls of most Americans. Even today, nearly three years after 9/11, a so-called "independent 9/11 commission" advises of the need for the state to centralize all of its spying, surveillance, and other information-gathering functions into the hands of one agency to be headed up by some born-again Laventri Beria, perhaps under the appropriate title "Inspector General."

There have also been trial-balloon news reports that the Bush administration will propose a national system of psychological profiling of Americans, to be followed up with appropriate drugs to alleviate identifiable "problems." The generation with which I grew up – having read Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World – would have treated such a proposal with alarm. I suspect that the response of most prostrated Americans today would be that, as long as the drugs are FDA approved, and no groups are singled out on the basis of race, gender, lifestyle, or religion for "treatment," there would be little objection.

Watch how quickly most Americans – being carefully orchestrated by the politicians and the media – will respond with the sense of urgency into which their fear-stricken minds have become accustomed. Any men and women of libertarian sentiments who question the wisdom of allowing the American state to proceed along its planned course toward neo-Stalinist despotism, will be condemned as "America haters," or insensitive to the victims of 9/11 and their grieving families. Should the matter arise during what will be laughingly referred to as the upcoming presidential "debates," both Bush and Kerry will try to outdo one another in their enthusiasm for increased draconianism.

These are not temporary measures – like wartime rationing – that will be put aside when an emergency is over and "normalcy" returns. The Bush administration’s allusions to the unending nature of the "war on terror" tells us that the "emergency" is a permanent one. The "terrorism" against which the state now organizes itself goes far beyond suicide bombers crashing airliners into office buildings. It is the "terror" experienced by a politically-structured establishment that has reached the outer limits of its efforts to control life processes in service to its narrow ends. A world that is becoming increasingly decentralized – whether in the form of alternative schooling, religions, and health-care; less-structured business-management practices and communications systems; political separatist movements, etc. – strikes terror in the minds of those who have created and become dependent upon centralized systems. The "terrorist" forces against which the state now mobilizes its most restrictive, punitive, surveillant, and violent mechanisms of control, is life itself; it is you and me, as Pogo Possum so insightfully observed a half-century ago.

"America," as a social system, simply doesn’t work well anymore, and there are latent life forces that urge us in other directions. The institutional agencies around which our lives have been organized are increasingly in conflict with the interests of people grown weary of increasing burdens of taxation and regulation, and of seeking ersatz purposes in life. The political establishment’s war against the American people – in which some 6.9 million are imprisoned or on probation or parole – is the most compelling evidence for the utter failure of a society dominated by the state.

But no system can last long in open hostility to its members. Trying to hold a society together through constantly reinforced fear, self-righteousness, surveillance, prison sentences, SWAT teams, expanded police forces, and increased legal and military violence, is as futile as a family trying to sustain itself through violent abuse. As we have been witnessing in the nearly three years after 9/11, such efforts necessitate an ever-increasing use of lies, deception, and disingenuousness, for reality has a persistent way of making itself known. Such methods also eventually trigger a resentment, as even the most fervent flag-waver is found to have a breaking point. Paraphrasing the words of Star Wars’ Princess Leia – in confronting one of the tyrants – "we are like sand in your hand; the tighter you squeeze us, the more of us that slip out."

Even the long-standing political systems and practices no longer stand in the way of establishment ambitions. Congress has been rendered little more than a rubber-stamp that approves whatever is placed before it by its masters. Despite the lies and collusions that underlay the Bush administration’s determination to go to war – a war that has thus far killed some ten to fifteen thousand people, wounded tens of thousands more, and cost billions of dollars to prosecute – I have not heard a single squeak from any member of Congress to impeach any of the principals involved. When one contrasts this with the impeachment of Bill Clinton for his lies about sex – lies that led to the deaths of no one – much is revealed about the bankrupt nature of modern America.

Even the Constitution has become largely irrelevant in the political scheme of things. For the more gullible, it can be said that the Constitution is what keeps the government from doing all of the terrible things that it does; that while it is not a perfect system, it’s a whole lot better than what we have! The will of the President and the Attorney General now seem to override constitutional sentiments about "due process of law" and a "speedy and public trial."

Local governments have taken to further restricting First Amendment "free speech" rights by designating "protest zones" to which criticism of the government is confined. On the eve of the Democratic national convention in Boston, a federal judge recently upheld such a blatant denial of free speech, even as he characterized it as "an affront to free expression." The judge admitted that the zoned area created by Boston city officials resembled a concentration camp, with a razor-wired chain-link fence surrounding it, and netting overhead. If he does regard this as such an affront – which it clearly is, as anyone who bothers to read the First Amendment will quickly discover – why did he not have the integrity to uphold his oath of office and strike down the restriction?

The answer to this question is to be found in the government’s long-standing attitudes toward individual liberty in general, and freedom of expression in particular. The courts have always given an expanded definition to powers granted to the government, and a restricted definition to individual liberties. "Freedom of expression" will be protected only if the speech is an ineffective challenge to state policies. Effective speech – no matter how peacefully expressed – will always be considered a worthy target for governmental restraint.

The "freedom of expression" about which even the politicians like to prattle, has been twisted from a celebration of pluralism into a demand for a stifling uniformity of thought and action. We live in a period of rigidly enforced "political correctness," a practice containing a glaring contradiction: an alleged belief in "diversity." But the reality of "diversity," particularly on college campuses, amounts to nothing more than the encouragement of men and women from a variety of racial, ethnic, and lifestyle groups who advocate state collectivism. If you doubt this, observe how genuine diversity – in the form of libertarian/free market opinion, anti-feminist women speakers, or blacks who are critical of the plantation politics of the Democratic party – is discouraged (or even prohibited) on many campuses. Freedom of expression is important to any healthy society because it challenges existing thought and practices. It is supposed to be disruptive of the status quo. But as the protestors in Boston have discovered as their messages are kept imprisoned in wire cages on an isolated street distant from the Democratic convention, "free speech" in America is now confined to speech that is comfortable to establishment interests!

The irony of it all: that such a court-enforced mockery of free expression should take place in Boston, where the voices of John Hancock and Sam Adams once made life miserable for the political establishment. The closest any of the Democratic party conventioneers will get to the spirit of Sam Adams will be what is handed them by a bartender!

People cannot get near the Boston convention center without "proper credentials," although Boston police officers plan on confronting conventioneers with protests of their own, in support of their contract demands with the city. Meanwhile, the state capitol building is surrounded by armed police officers. What better evidence than this of how distant political systems are from ordinary people, and how government officials are terrified by the very people they are supposed to "represent!" But when the state increasingly compels people to do what they do not want to do, prevents them from doing what they do want to do, and forcibly takes more money from them in the form of taxes and fines, why wouldn’t government officials start to worry?

About twenty years ago, I made a tongue-in-cheek suggestion that the government might – under the guise of promoting individual liberty – enact a statute mandating people to exercise their "freedom." People could be required to visit a "freedom exercise center" in their communities where, under the watchful and protective eye of policemen, they could express any opinions they wanted. This would all take place in a small room, from which others would be excluded – in the name of protecting the privacy of the speaker, of course. Only the police officers would watch to make certain that he or she had, in fact, expressed their opinions. Those who failed to do so would be prosecuted for a failure to "protect the exercise of American freedom."

I hesitate to mention this earlier proposal, given the present disposition of both Republican and Democratic politicians. I can just imagine John Kerry and George Bush racing to the microphones to be the first to propose this measure which, I am certain, would immediately be endorsed by the same gang of fools who fly flags from their homes and cars, memorize the gurglings of Bill O’Reilly, or write editorials for major newspapers.

This is what America has become, and is destined to remain unless either (a) some major metamorphosis in our thinking takes us in a different direction, or, (b) like the Soviet Union, the present dysfunctional system collapses of its inherent contradictions and hostilities to life processes. While it is impossible to predict the long-term course of complex systems, events seem to point to option (b) as the likely prognosis, a suspicion that appears to be shared by members of the political establishment. The fate of the American civilization in such a post-collapse period will depend upon whether a sufficient intelligence and creative energy will be available to transform the culture into the kind of free and peaceful society it has long ceased to be.

July 27, 2004

Butler Shaffer . . . teaches at the Southwestern University School of Law.
 
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Contrasaur

Inactive
The hurried enactment of the Patriot Act, the creation of a Department of Homeland Security, and the wholesale expansion of police powers, were reactions of the political establishment to the realization that it had lost the support and respect of millions of Americans.

Terrorism is a tactic to force the ruling government to react in a forceful way so as to drive a wedge between the government and the people.

It worked.

Good article but I still have hope that enough Americans will wake up and act in time to restore our freedoms.
 

north runner

Membership Revoked
Its all true and irrelevant at the same time. Its individuals who have to pull back from the edge and ask themselves how they will survive the insanity of the herd.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Damn! This is one of the most cogent essays on the current state of the USSA that I've ever read! IMHO, this belongs here on the front page, because it details, without party bias, exactly what condition we're in, and what fate awaits us.

Welcome to the United Socialist States of Amerika....
 

SouthernGal

"Don't retreat...reload"
Kimber said:
I hesitate to mention this earlier proposal, given the present disposition of both Republican and Democratic politicians. I can just imagine John Kerry and George Bush racing to the microphones to be the first to propose this measure which, I am certain, would immediately be endorsed by the same gang of fools who fly flags from their homes and cars, memorize the gurglings of Bill O’Reilly, or write editorials for major newspapers.


I think the essay was dead on except for the fact that I fly a flag from my home, I have a Boycott France and a NO UN bumper sticker on my car and I watch Bill O'Reilly almost every night and I am NOT a brain dead zombie (plus the fact, Bill O'Reilly would not agree with this).



:usfl:
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
One can fly the flag IMO, as it represents the IDEALS of our nation, rather than the current gooberment. As to O'Reilly, I listen to him, but only for entertainment, and to see some folks (who desperately need to) made to squirm on national TeeVee...
 

bigwavedave

Deceased
if Butler Shaffer could set up things just the way he wanted, an equal number of disenchanted would be B&M just like they do today. guaranteed. :)
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
I have showed the article to a couple people today and their eyes glaze over. They see the words but do not comprehend. Reminds me of Y2K days.

Hmmmmm.
 

Kimber

Membership Revoked
My own 2 cents, and that's all it's likely worth, because I'm guessing as well.

I think it will be option b, but a lot more like the fall of the USSR than Mr. Shaffer may realize. While it's true God could just hit the "reset" button via some exogenous shock (terrorism, asteroid, Planet X, antichrist, etc.), I think the system is most likely to collapse because of economic factors.

The manner (at least initially) would be different than the fall of the USSR. There, it was glasnost and perestroika, in an attempt to keep the economy humming - things kinda "got out of hand." ;) In our case, it will be a Greater Depression brought on by debt and the lack of any real industrial production. Unlike the 1930s, however, new government feel good programs won't work because there will be no more milk to squeeze out of the system. The government programs are, in part, what will cause the collapse.

Poor people without their entitlements make for unhappy people. Couple this with government self-interest to avoid unrest and retain control. I don't know how it will play out, but it sure isn't going to be pretty. Depending upon how the sheeple react, we could first "evolve" into a type of quasi-communist state before finally emerging. (Picture a national sales tax, return to the 90% top marginal rate but without deductions, and maybe a federal property tax.) The masses vote and outnumber propertied/productive individuals. Who do you think the politicians will pander to? Over the long run, I'm actually optimistic, but it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

David
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Well if nothing else, at the end of today I will have learned much more about the main thrust behind libertarianism than I had taken the time to comprehend before.

On this thread, there are a few nice sounding ideals being trumpeted, but that always HAS been the face of libertarianism that we can all smile at and nod. What I hadn't realized before was the fact that full-fledged anarchy is the genuine dream of these people.

I'd guess many here are aware of that and embrace the philosophy as their own. I'd also guess that there are some here who don't have a clue about the kind of raw meat underlying the libertarian makeup.

Don't believe me? Take a read of several of Mr. Shaffer's archived articles at the Lew Rockwell site. When you're done with that, go look around at some of the rest of the content at that Rockwell site that he pumps through the minds of his impressionable flock.

I have to say, Americans really should be kicking the tires and a whole lot more before buying into such revolutionary garbage. It draws some folks' attention because of a shiny, but very thin idealistic veneer. Cut into the surface a bit and you find a seething, growing revolutionary cult-like group that has some pretty impractical, but nasty ideas up its sleeves.

More astute and detail-wrapped politicos than me commonly refer to Rockwell as being an anarcho-capitalist. Apparently, that's a particular denomination of the greater "church" of libertarianism. But from everything I gather from researching libertarianism of all stripes ... it's all about the idea that government and authority of all or most kinds are evil.

In the end, I guess our libertarians among us will have to describe the world they envision without authority. But I for one have a hard time getting past the first few lines of Lennon's "Imagine" without seeing candy-cane street posts and lemon drop sidewalks.


Three guesses where this guy and his pals are getting their ultimate props from ...
 
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Maher

Inactive
JC & everyone: Actually, Rockwell is more of an Ayn Rand "Objectivist" Capitalist/Libertarian than anything else. Even though he didn't write the article himself, he endorses it. I STRONGLY disagree with this:
Despite the lies and collusions that underlay the Bush administration’s determination to go to war – a war that has thus far killed some ten to fifteen thousand people, wounded tens of thousands more, and cost billions of dollars to prosecute – I have not heard a single squeak from any member of Congress to impeach any of the principals involved. When one contrasts this with the impeachment of Bill Clinton for his lies about sex – lies that led to the deaths of no one – much is revealed about the bankrupt nature of modern America.
IMO, this author (Butler Shaffer) is nothing more than a disingenuous jerk. In the first place, everyone agreed that Sadam had WMDs that were even used against the Kurds and the Iranians. Just because they weren't found in Iraq (after we telegraphed for months that we were going to invade) doesn't mean that they didn't exist or that he wasn't planning to use them himself or sell them to terrorist organizations (which he had probably done already). I think if we looked hard in Syria (and elsewhere), we'd find Sadam’s stash.

Secondly, Clinton wasn't impeached for just lying to his wife and the country about sex. Here are the charges:
SUMMARY

The President is charged in two Articles with: 1) Perjury and false and misleading testimony and statements under oath before a federal grand jury (Article I), and 2) engaging in a course of conduct or scheme to delay and obstruct justice (Article II).

The evidence contained in the record, when viewed as a unified whole, overwhelmingly supports both charges.

Perjury and False Statements Under Oath

President Clinton deliberately and willfully testified falsely under oath when he appeared before a federal grand jury on August 17, 1998. Although what follows is not exhaustive, some of the more overt examples will serve to illustrate.

* At the very outset, the President read a prepared statement, which itself contained totally false assertions and other clearly misleading information.

* The President relied on his statement nineteen times in his testimony when questioned about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky.

* President Clinton falsely testified that he was not paying attention when his lawyer employed Ms. Lewinsky's false affidavit at the Jones deposition.

* He falsely claimed that his actions with Ms. Lewinsky did not fall within the definition of "sexual relations" that was given at his deposition.

* He falsely testified that he answered questions truthfully at his deposition concerning, among other subjects, whether he had been alone with Ms. Lewinsky.

* He falsely testified that he instructed Ms. Lewinsky to turn over the gifts if she were subpoenaed.

* He falsely denied trying to influence Ms. Currie after his deposition.

* He falsely testified that he was truthful to his aides when he gave accounts of his relationship, which accounts were subsequently disseminated to the media and the grand jury.

Obstruction of Justice

The President engaged in an ongoing scheme to obstruct both the Jones civil case and the grand jury. Further, he undertook a continuing and concerted plan to tamper with witnesses and prospective witnesses for the purpose of causing those witnesses to provide false and misleading testimony. Examples abound:

* The President and Ms. Lewinsky concocted a cover story to conceal their relationship, and the President suggested that she employ that story if subpoenaed in the Jones case.

* The President suggested that Ms. Lewinsky provide an affidavit to avoid testifying in the Jones case, when he knew that the affidavit would need to be false to accomplish its purpose.

* The President knowingly and willfully allowed his attorney to file Ms. Lewinsky's false affidavit and to use it for the purpose of obstructing justice in the Jones case.

* The President suggested to Ms. Lewinsky that she provide a false account of how she received her job at the Pentagon.

* The President attempted to influence the expected testimony of his secretary, Ms. Currie, by providing her with a false account of his meetings with Ms. Lewinsky.

* The President provided several of his top aides with elaborate lies about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, so that those aides would convey the false information to the public and to the grand jury. When he did this, he knew that those aides would likely be called to testify, while he was declining several invitations to testify. By this action, he obstructed and delayed the operation of the grand jury.

* The President conspired with Ms. Lewinsky and Ms. Currie to conceal evidence that he had been subpoenaed in the Jones case, and thereby delayed and obstructed justice.

* The President and his representatives orchestrated a campaign to discredit Ms. Lewinsky in order to affect adversely her credibility as a witness, and thereby attempted to obstruct justice both in the Jones case and the grand jury.

* The President lied repeatedly under oath in his deposition in the Jones case, and thereby obstructed justice in that case.

* The President's lies and misleading statements under oath at the grand jury were calculated to, and did obstruct, delay and prevent the due administration of justice by that body.

* The President employed the power of his office to procure a job for Ms. Lewinsky after she signed the false affidavit by causing his friend to exert extraordinary efforts for that purpose. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/iguide.htm
The biggest bankruptcy in America is that people actually think that the pervert "Clinton" was a good President. How can any rational person say that Bush should be impeached for doing his best in the war on terrorism and in the same breath say that Clinton was harmless (even though the Chinese ICBM capabilities flourished under Clintons regime).
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
JC Refuge said:
What I hadn't realized before was the fact that full-fledged anarchy is the genuine dream of these people.

All I want is the restoration of the U.S. Constitution.

I'd guess many here are aware of that and embrace the philosophy as their own. I'd also guess that there are some here who don't have a clue about the kind of raw meat underlying the libertarian makeup.

Don't believe me? Take a read of several of Mr. Shaffer's archived articles at the Lew Rockwell site. When you're done with that, go look around at some of the rest of the content at that Rockwell site that he pumps through the minds of his impressionable flock.
It is possible to embrace certain ideas and philosophy without endorsing the whole agenda of other people using the same ideas to pursue their own ends.

Our founding farthers made it clear that we must continually fight for our liberty.

Do not let the agenda of Rockwell taint the desire for liberty.
 
Great post. I very much dislike the fact that these interesting posts get relegated to the sidelines where they will probably not be read by many (if any) people who go to TB2K.

Out of sight, out of mind. I think it's a BIG mistake to sweep these political posts to such an out of the way hidey hole. Seems like a form of censorship, to me. I wonder how many readers of TB2K even know about these extra forums?

At the very least, it would be helpful if whoever moves any of the threads to a new sig should at least make a note to the readers where the thread will now be moved to. Just my NSHO.
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Contrasaur, what the heck? Liberty?

Give me a break. Or at least tell me about the atrocites visited upon you by your federal government.

I have to judge a book by what's on the cover AND what lies within the pages. A couple of our own reputed resident libertarians on another current thread ...

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109780

... embraced and endorsed the marxist drivel about revolution if "Bush steals the election again." They say it's overdue, the time is right, blah, blah, blah.

In the end, you need only go to the origination to find out that it is indeed communists who espouse violent overthrow of our democracy while putting out the "peaceful revolution stuff" that libertarians eat up. Go to the end of that thread at this point for a revelation from that original article's author about who he and who his people are.

They are the people who are sowing the seeds of every kind of discontent out there in America today. If you buy into it, you are one of them. And those battle lines may indeed be drawn soon.
 

wrs

Inactive
So JCR, now we know your boundary line

Or at least tell me about the atrocites visited upon you by your federal government.

It will take an atrocity from your govt to cause you to realize that it isn't acting in your best interest. Unconstitutional and unequal taxes aren't enough, snooping on you isn't enough, forcing you into licensure for normal activity such as motor vehicle travel, operation of a business or owning a gun isn't enough, taxing your property and attaching a lien on it if you don't pay isn't enough, taking the money through extortion and using it to fund queers and idolators isnt enough, making false promises that the SS system will be there when you and I retire but clearly spending everything that comes in now in the general budget isn't enough, forcing upon the people a money that loses its value and requires that interest be paid upon it in order to have it in circulation when the founding fathers wanted silver and gold isn't enough, forcing people to carry identification and tell the police who they are whenever asked even though we have the right to privacy and against self-incrimination isnt enough, stealing the citizens gold through the use of bills of attainder and ex-post facto laws which are expressly forbidden by Article I Section 9 of the Constitution of the United States isn't enough, instituting a draft for an undeclared war isn't enough.

NO FOR YOU JCR IT WILL TAKE AN ATROCITY AND APPARENTLY 911 WASNT BIG ENOUGH FOR YOU AND A LOT OF OTHERS. So it's going to be a bad one to get you to wake up. This is exactly what I think the author is getting at in this article................................
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Ride, WRS, ride. Allow me to open the paddock gate for you when you mount up to charge into the bloody fray. Thank God we have a few who know the truth and remain alert!

There must be a few million other brilliant, heroic, revolutionary legends-to-be in this country today who are also ready to free us from our bonds. Marxists, libertarians, anarchists of all flavors, and even a few liberals in pink leotards ... a band of brothers united in a grand mission to right the ship and recast the Republic in ideal terms, imagined now only by the greatest and most enlightened visionaries among us.

The time is surely now for real leaders to step up and be counted ... Michael Moore, Al Gore, Barbara Streisand. Names that shall belong to the ages.

What miseries you have endured and patience you've exhibited through your American toil and anguish. The longing for liberties stolen. And the relief that must be washing over you to realize the reason for your very being is almost upon you.

To know that your line has been crossed and that you will now be making your move. Taking no more from them. Oh the injustice!

Seize the day, WRS. Seize the day. Yes, throw off your chains, sir, and show us the way.
 

wrs

Inactive
JCR, the difference between us is that

at least I know what kind of tyranny Im living under, therefore Im not delusional. You on the other hand are so inurred to and deluded by the tyranny, that you extol it's aspects as though they were virtues and desire even more of it. You have been truly brainwashed in deluxe fashion.........................

By the way have you seen Cold Mountain? Those poor kids in that story wanted a war because they didn't know any better. Im not about to try to start a war I can't win because it's pointless. On the other hand, I can continue to discuss the points of contention on internet boards such as this which I feel does do some good. It never hurts to better understand what is going on and as I do, enlighten others as well.

Jesus never killed anyone, he just simply enlightened the people with the truth (you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free John 8:32) about their evil leaders. Let's see, does this sound familiar to you?

Luke 11:43-46
3 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them." 45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, "Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also." 46 And He said, "Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
NKJV


Sounds a lot like our elected representatives to me. They use the taxes that they take from us to enrich their friends, they have their own retirement and health care plan that the rest of us cannot have and they continue to insist that SS isn't a ponzi scheme and that they will someday balance the budget. In the meantime because they cannot stop spending more than they take in, they raise taxes when they say they wont. Yes, they sound a lot like the people Jesus exposed as hypocrites and whom he rightly called a brood of vipers.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
JC Refuge said:
Contrasaur, what the heck? Liberty?

Give me a break. Or at least tell me about the atrocites visited upon you by your federal government.

I have to judge a book by what's on the cover AND what lies within the pages. A couple of our own reputed resident libertarians on another current thread ...

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=109780

... embraced and endorsed the marxist drivel about revolution if "Bush steals the election again." They say it's overdue, the time is right, blah, blah, blah.

In the end, you need only go to the origination to find out that it is indeed communists who espouse violent overthrow of our democracy while putting out the "peaceful revolution stuff" that libertarians eat up. Go to the end of that thread at this point for a revelation from that original article's author about who he and who his people are.

They are the people who are sowing the seeds of every kind of discontent out there in America today. If you buy into it, you are one of them. And those battle lines may indeed be drawn soon.
Thanks for pointing me to the other thread and now I better understand you.

I am not sure why my personal experience with the government is pertinent since the harm of government is all around us. But if you must know, in addition to the many actions listed by others, my family had the privledge of having our land taken to make a national park. I then realized that Americans own land until somebody with power wants it. We were paid but let me tell you there is a hole in our heart that will not heal. I felt like the king snatched up my life's work, laughed and threw a few coins over his shoulder.

I reject your narrow vision that any desire to restore the constitution is some sort of conspiracy to establish a left wing dictatorship. I now know, thanks to you, that there are people who would foment armed revolution for those ends. I am glad the Marxists still speak freely because it is a reminder that not all is lost in our country. But my opinion does not arise from the boogie bears you quote but from the words of our founding fathers.

A big problem with discussions on this subject is the definition of words especially "liberal" and "conservative". Your adherence to the status quo is conservative in the classic sense but the actions of the Republicans in power today, who you identify with, is not conservative or liberal but socialist and fascist. Just because they call themselves conservative does not make it so. And the democrats are no different. No matter what they call themselves their acts define them.

America was founded by liberals (classic definition, not the swear word used by many) and we have a long liberal tradition. Much of that tradition was born in church pews which is sure to a big surprise to the ignorant who parrot the slogans of con men with bibles. I would support either liberal or conservative politicians against socialists or fascist, if I could find any.

No, there will not be an armed revolution. It is no longer possible. So do not fear the always there Castro wannabes. As long as they have a place to publicly speak and be challenged we are safe from them. And most posted bravado is but chihuahuas barking at the moon.

Thank you for your family's service. Your son's sacrifice is noble and honorable no matter the outcome. My nephew leaves for Marine boot camp in two days. He received my approval and encouragement because I recognize the threat from outside is a much bigger priority than any perceived internal political differences and that he is on a personal quest.

And yes, take action to restore the constitution. Vote for anybody but a Democrat or a Republican.
 

rryan

Inactive
Glad this was posted--planned on doing it myself this morning.

Those of you who so vehemnetly disagree with Mr Shaffer should contact him----email him your disagreements--he generally will respond.

And where the hell did the idea of self governance and basically "no" government (read: not trying to control what everyone else does) become a bad thing?

I strongly suspect those who are greatly oppossed to anarychy or even close are oppossed for personal reason-afraid they might not be able to keep up, compete or that their views would become marginalized or downright dissapear without soemone with a stick to make sure they are respected or remebered.

I believe Mr Jefferson had soemthing to say about beliefs and practices that could nto stand on their own and required the support of the government to continue.

-A proud resident anarcho-capitalist.
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
wrs said:
at least I know what kind of tyranny Im living under, therefore Im not delusional. You on the other hand are so inurred to and deluded by the tyranny, that you extol it's aspects as though they were virtues and desire even more of it. You have been truly brainwashed in deluxe fashion.........................

Luke 11:43-46
3 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them." 45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, "Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also." 46 And He said, "Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
NKJV


Sounds a lot like our elected representatives to me. They use the taxes that they take from us to enrich their friends, they have their own retirement and health care plan that the rest of us cannot have and they continue to insist that SS isn't a ponzi scheme and that they will someday balance the budget. In the meantime because they cannot stop spending more than they take in, they raise taxes when they say they wont. Yes, they sound a lot like the people Jesus exposed as hypocrites and whom he rightly called a brood of vipers.
WRS, I'm not about to argue Biblical interpretations with you. You'll find and interpret your way into any idea you want to in the Bible if you are willing to stretch far enough. But in my opinion, the passage you cite is primarily directed at religious leaders. The reference to lawyers does not say much to me other than the fact that they and all of us are woeful for how we live and act.

More to the point of taxes, of course, is the following passage:

Matthew 22
<SUP>15</SUP> Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
<SUP>16</SUP> And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
<SUP>17</SUP> Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
<SUP>18</SUP> But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
<SUP>19</SUP> Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
<SUP>20</SUP> And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
<SUP>21</SUP> They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
<SUP>22</SUP> When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.


As for our "tyranny" :rolleyes: :lol:

We have enough real enemies out there trying to take us down and kill us all ... they will succeed only if those working to destroy us from within continue to breed.
 

wrs

Inactive
Yes and the question that must be answered

from that passage is, What is Caesar's?

You answer me that question and then I will talk to you about taxes..............

But if you want to find out more about Jesus's view on the Temple Tax (which is not what is being discussed here), you will note that he paid it but that the payment was found in the mouth of a fish. To me, God is saying that his view of taxes is that the people who insist on taking them don't particularly care where they come from, just that they get them.

Now as to the lawyers of Jesus time, the Jews had a theocracy and if you recall, Pilate didn't find Jesus guilty of anything under Roman law, it was the lawyers that condemened himm to death for blasphemy. I don't think religious law in our country carries the weight of death do you? If you don't want to see that our lawyers are no different than the lawyers Jesus referred to, fine. I would suggest however that you visit the topic of secular humanism and note how that is the predominate view taken in our law today. In that case if you are willing to concede that secular humanism is a religion and our law enforces it, then you might also have to concede that you worship a false god, which is I think the heart of the matter.............................
 

Safecastle

Emergency Essentials Store
Contrasaur said:
Your adherence to the status quo is conservative in the classic sense but the actions of the Republicans in power today, who you identify with, is not conservative or liberal but socialist and fascist. Just because they call themselves conservative does not make it so. And the democrats are no different. No matter what they call themselves their acts define them.
So true about the labels vs. actions, Contrasaur. I must point out though that I do not identify with the Republicans per se. I do identify with many traditional, conservative, family and Biblically based issues and mores. I also strongly identify with the American system ... meaning our people, our government, and our way of life.

Quaint though that may sound, I know from personal experience enough of how others live around the world that I do not take for granted the tremendous blessings we have as citizens in the USA. Indeed, we have one of the few systems of government that allow us to continue to work to improve our own lot in life ... individually and collectively.

I also have unusual past experience and limited current insights into the threat we face from marxism that you dismiss. I'll suggest you at least keep an eye in that direction to ensure you are not further misled by the leftist propoganda that permeates America today.

I've learned a great deal the last couple of days about those who feel their lives in America are being lived under a tyranny. One of the base differences I suppose between them and me is that I don't have any issues with "authority." I acknowledge God's authority over all, and I recognize and appreciate government's authority over its citizens.
 
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