OP-ED U.S. Submarines: Run Silent, Run Deep...On Diesel Engines?

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://nationalinterest.org/feature...ent-run-deepon-diesel-engines-11306?page=show

U.S. Submarines: Run Silent, Run Deep...On Diesel Engines?

"Now may be the time to break up the nuclear monopoly."

James Holmes
September 18, 2014
Comments 12

"Underway on nuclear power", radioed the skipper of USS Nautilus in 1955, after taking history's first nuclear-powered attack submarine to sea for the first time. Nautilus's maiden cruise left an indelible imprint on the navy. Her success, cheered on by the likes of Admiral Hyman Rickover, the godfather of naval nuclear propulsion, helped encode the supremacy of atomic power in the submarine force's cultural DNA.

Things were never the same after that. America built its last diesel-electric sub, once the state of the art, not long after Nautilus took to the sea. Not since 1990 has the U.S. Navy operated conventionally powered boats. It's been longer than that since they were frontline fighting ships. For a quarter-century, then, it's been all nukes, all the time. No U.S. shipbuilder even constructs diesel boats nowadays.

That was then. Now may be the time to break up the nuclear monopoly. To wit, imagine permanently forward-deploying a squadron of diesel attack boats, or SSKs, to likely hotspots. Such a force would expand America's silent service, reversing the ongoing slide in numbers of hulls. It would do so at reasonable cost in this age of budgetary stress. A standing East Asia squadron would be close to the action. Likely based in Japan and Guam, it would amplify the U.S.-Japanese fleet's prowess vis-á-vis China's navy and merchant marine. It would empower Washington and Tokyo to deny China access to offshore waters without committing the whole fleet of U.S. nuclear-powered boats to the endeavor. And in the process it would open up new vistas for building and reinforcing alliances.

Greater numbers, middling cost, a heavier punch in battle. That's a major contribution from such humble craft. U.S. submariners' diesel-propelled past could be, and should be, part of their future.

There's nothing new or especially radical about conventional U.S. subs' prowling the Western Pacific deep. They did so to devastating effect during World War II. For instance, the Philippine Islands was home to the largest concentration of U.S. submarines in the Pacific on the eve of hostilities. U.S. commanders squandered a golden opportunity to run wild against transports carrying Japanese troops to invade the Philippines. But their missed opportunity doesn't detract from subs' potential to confound opponents amid Asia's intricate nautical terrain. It's an exception that proves the rule.

And indeed, American submarines vindicated their potential in ensuing years. U.S. Pacific Fleet boats were among the first vessels to return to Asia following the Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor. Ordered to sea while the battle line was still ablaze at Ford Island, they helped dismember an island empire. Empires like Japan's depend on ships to ferry all manner of warmaking materiel—raw materials, foodstuffs, finished goods—hither and yon. Take away seaborne movement and you cut the lineaments binding the imperial enterprise together.

The submarine campaign grew more and more effective as the U.S. offensives undulated across the Central and South Pacific. U.S. Navy, Marine and Army amphibious forces wrested outer islands from Japan, letting the navy position, maintenance and logistics outposts closer to the foe. Submarine tenders—floating repair and supply depots for all intents and purposes—staged support operations westward of Hawaii. As the transpacific campaigns progressed, boats wasted less time transiting to and from assigned hunting grounds. They spent more time strewing the seafloor with enemy merchantmen and men-of-war.

Forward bases, then, offset the tyranny of distance—allowing the submarine force to mount a stifling presence in Asian waters. Wartime prime minister General Hideki Tōjō catalogued submarine warfare among three critical determinants of Japan's defeat—high praise from someone in a position to know.

And afterward? Ravaged by undersea combat during World War II, Japan built an impressive submarine force of its own to help prosecute the Cold War. Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) diesel boats turned geography to advantage, lurking in and around the straits that pierce Asia's offshore island chains. Crews monitored and encumbered east-west movement between the China seas and the Western Pacific. Soviet skippers often balked at attempting the passage. The JMSDF, in short, forged itself into a lethal weapon for a cold war beneath the waves.

And so it remains. JMSDF Soryu-class diesel attack boats are the biggest boats of their type, and they're acclaimed among the best—for good reason. Their size lets them carry large amounts of fuel, weaponry and stores, making long patrols feasible. The depths offer a sub its best concealment. Accordingly, Japanese SSKs are outfitted with air-independent propulsion, obviating their need to surface and snorkel frequently. That's an Achilles' heel of older diesel subs. Soryus, then, can remain underwater for long stretches, evading detection from the surface or aloft. And their acoustic properties are excellent while submerged—helping them elude enemy passive sonar. What adversary sonar men can't hear can hurt them.

In short, Soryus are optimized for plying the China seas and Western Pacific. Those are precisely the waters the U.S. Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard singled out as crucial in the 2007 Maritime Strategy, the sea services' most authoritative statement of how they see the strategic environment and intend to manage it. Soryu SSKs are proven platforms manned by experienced mariners who can bequeath their knowledge to their U.S. comrades. That makes these boats a logical common platform around which to build a combined SSK squadron.

Let's evaluate the Soryus' candidacy while remaining mindful that many other capable diesel subs—for instance, the German Type 214—are also on the market and worth considering. In operational terms, what would a U.S.-Japanese force do? Its strategic rationale would be straightforward: it would turn access denial against China, its foremost contemporary practitioner. Reciprocity is a fine thing. Or, if you prefer your strategic wisdom colloquial, paybacks are a b*tch.

In other words, if Beijing wants to deny U.S. forces access to the theater, U.S. and Japanese commanders should reply in kind. They can deploy submarines along the first island chain to fight in concert with surface forces, detachments of missile-armed land troops, and shore-based tactical aircraft. Combined-arms forces could:

- Keep the People's Liberation Army (PLA) from wresting away beachheads in the island chain. Bursting through the island chain would turn Japan's southern flank (and Taiwan's northern flank), compromising Japanese territory while making it far harder to cordon off the China seas. Defending the islands should be Job One for allied forces.

- Expel China's flag from crucial seaways. Plugging, say, Miyako Strait (south of Okinawa) with submarines while erecting overlapping fields of anti-ship-missile fire overhead would give the most determined PLA Navy skipper pause. He would think twice before trying to exit the East China Sea for the Western Pacific (or to return to home waters if caught outside).

- Make transiting north-south along the Asian seaboard perilous in the extreme. SSKs venturing within the island chain could target merchantmen and PLA Navy units with impunity, imposing unbearable costs on Beijing for making trouble.

In short, staging a combined fleet near likely scenes of action would give rise to a kind of mutual assured sea denial. Properly executed, allied anti-access preparations would yield a measure of deterrence vis-á-vis China—enhancing prospects for uneasy peace in the Far East.

But why diesel boats? Isn't the all-nuclear U.S. silent service the world's finest, a silver bullet in the navy's chamber? Yes and no. A U.S. Navy boat remains the odds-on favorite in a duel against any single antagonist. Mass is a severe and worsening problem, however. If the fleet disperses itself all over the map, as global navies are wont to do, it's apt to find itself outmatched at some trouble spot or another. Never mind how capable an individual platform may be. If commanders concentrate assets in one trouble spot, on the other hand, other priorities may go uncovered. Now as ever, quantity has a quality all its own. And quantity is precisely where trouble lies.

The reason for dwindling fleet totals should astound no one. It's dollars and cents. As Cold War-era Los Angeles-class nuclear attack subs (SSNs) retire, they're being replaced not on a one-for-one basis but by fewer, more expensive Virginia-class SSNs. As costs rise and shipbuilding budgets stagnate—if that—downward pressure on numbers mounts inexorably. The fleet is projected to sag from 55 SSNs today to as low as 42 around 2030.

Forty-two sounds like a lot, doesn't it? But naval leaders are forever reminding us that seven-tenths of the earth's surface is covered by water. The seven seas adds up to an awful lot of waterspace for 42 boats to police—especially since a sizable fraction of that tally is in overhaul, routine maintenance, or workups on any given day. Many units, that is, are unavailable for combat duty no matter how sorely they're needed. Shave a third off the raw number of ships and you have a good guesstimate about the number of subs available to some degree or another.

Sure, 60 percent of the SSN contingent now calls the Pacific home. But though the percentage sounds impressive, that's only 33 vessels, a number that could shrink as low as 25 by 2030. And allied fleets? The JMSDF is expanding its own subsurface contingent from 16 to 22 SSKs, mainly by extending the service lives of boats already in the inventory. Thus a combined U.S.-Japanese fleet of 47 subs would be arrayed against some 70 PLA Navy attack boats within the foreseeable future. But even that figure probably exaggerates. It relies on the doubtful assumption that Washington concentrates the entire Pacific Fleet submarine force in the Western Pacific—letting commitments elsewhere go.

That's a 50 percent advantage numerical advantage for China—at a minimum. Again, allied submarines remain superior, boat for boat, but at some point brute numbers begin to tell. So the challenge before Washington is to add capable boats to its fleet on the cheap. (Tokyo could do its part by scrapping its self-imposed cap on defense spending and investing more generously in undersea warfare.) Here the figures are striking. The unit cost for the Soryu is estimated at $500 million, whereas each copy of the Virginia class comes in at a cool $2.8 billion. Do the math. It appears the U.S. Navy could afford five Soryus for the price of one Virginia, with change left over. That's bang for the buck.

Admittedly, the barriers to reentry into conventional submarine warfare would be formidable. For one, the ghost of Hyman Rickover would haunt any such debate. SSKs, unlike SSNs, command little obvious constituency within the submarine force, the navy, or Congress. Overcoming the all-nuclear mystique would demand concerted effort on the part of diesel proponents, perhaps with help from some truly dire budgetary pain. Such pain is more likely than not. In the 2020s, for instance, the navy will commence replacing its Ohio-class ballistic-missile submarines. Top navy leaders have warned that this project alone could drain shipbuilding coffers. Inexpensive non-nuclear alternatives may come to look palatable—if not downright appealing—under such fiscal circumstances.

Next, cultural proclivities aside, the nuclear navy would likely construe any move to acquire diesel boats as a threat to current SSN procurement plans. They might see an SSK program as a substitute for new Virginias, not as a complement to the nuclear-powered fleet. It would look like an attempt by cost-cutters to save money on the sly, at the expense of operational effectiveness. Defense manufacturers—particularly those specializing in naval nuclear propulsion—would add their voices to the din. And the outcry would be universal and twice as loud should Washington contemplate buying foreign—witness the uproar among Australian firms over Canberra's apparent decision to buy Soryus rather than replace its Collins-class SSKs with an indigenous make.

In short, the pushback from guardians of the status quo would be frightful to behold. This is a debate worth having nonetheless. Think about the upsides to diesel subs, even apart from their modest cost:

- If indeed the Australian government proceeds with a purchase of ten Soryu-class boats to replace its underperforming Collins class, the Soryu could form the nucleus of a multinational East Asian submarine force spanning more than just the U.S. Navy and the JMSDF. Other partners could join in. Basing, maintaining, and employing a standardized fleet would be far easier than it is with the usual hodgepodge of ships built by many designers from many countries.

- Multinational detachments could operate not just from Japan or Guam to the north but from the Philippines or Australia to the south. A standing allied presence along the first island chain would constitute a potent deterrent to Chinese mischief. So would an exterior position in Australia. Such a strategic position would grant diesel boats access to the South China Sea at many points along that expanse's permeable rim.

- As World War II and the Cold War proved, proximity to patrol grounds magnifies the operational and strategic efficacy of undersea combat. Short transit times equates to more time on station and less wear-and-tear on people and hardware. Mounting patrols from homeports in the region thus boosts the number of hulls ready for sea when the balloon goes up.

- Embracing a time-tested common platform would ease the interoperability problems that plague multinational ventures. Dissimilar gadgetry, tactics, techniques, and procedures, and national and service cultures throw sand in the gears of coalition operations, generating the "friction" that Carl von Clausewitz bewailed two centuries ago. The lubricant Clausewitz recommended was combat experience. Yes; and combat experience lubricates best when the warriors all carry the same arms. Never underestimate the power of standardized equipment—especially when a corps of experts, namely JMSDF submariners, already exists that can pass down knowledge and expertise to newcomers. U.S. submariners could ascend the diesel-boat learning curve swiftly, making themselves proficient in this new, old technology.

- And lastly, a return to conventionally powered subs would confer side benefits within the U.S. Navy. Since the inception of atomic power, with its technical rigor and time-consuming training, it has become rare indeed for surface-ship sailors to cross over to serve in submarines, or vice versa. It's almost unheard of to do what, say, a guy named Chester Nimitz did: start off life as a submariner before going on to serve in cruisers. Reintroducing conventional subs could reintroduce the professional mobility of times gone by. Each community would profit from knowing the other's operating element firsthand. The navy as a whole would profit from collapsing some of the stovepipes—a.k.a. "cylinders of excellence"—that separate communities from one another to such baneful effect.

So let's open a new conversation within the naval community. And let's not accept "because...Rickover!!!" or kindred excuses for staying with current methods and hardware. If not diesel submarines, why not?

James Holmes is Professor of Strategy at the U.S. Naval War College and coauthor of Red Star over the Pacific. The views voiced here are his alone.

Image: Wikimedia Commons/Hunini/CC by-sa 3.0

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Comments 12

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R Spitzer • 3 hours ago

There are a slew of weapons we now purchase we should not and several we are retiring that should remain active. The driving force for these decisions is the same it has been for years, not military readiness but the ugly nexus between, the Congress, defense contractors and to a lesser extent DoD/Military services culture.

Unless and until we figure out how to break what we all know is broken, we will continue to overpay for under performing weapons systems (F-35 Littoral) that actually sap the readiness and strength of America's armed forces.

The only idea I have to solve the problem I have posed above is to double the sequester cuts. Nothing sharpens the mind like non-reversible reductions in funds.

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smoothieX12 . > R Spitzer • 34 minutes ago

The driving force for these decisions is the same it has been for years,
not military readiness but the ugly nexus between, the Congress,
defense contractors and to a lesser extent DoD/Military services
culture.

A superb observation. It is true of any military in the world but in US it reached a monstrous proportions. As Elmo Zumwalt sardonically reiterated many times what he "learned" from Rickover:"US Navy got used to traveling "first class""(c) "First class", of course, being enormously expensive and large ships. Some of them of dubious value. Professor Thompson's superb treatise was published by Naval Institute Press in mid-2000s. I doubt it will be published today, but I could be wrong.

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Nicky • 2 hours ago

Absolutely because SSK submarines can be used to choke the enemy in their harbor's, key shipping channels/lanes and can even be used for special operations in getting them very close to shore and extracting them very close. I also can see SSK's be used for ISR and as listening outpost. SSK submarines can also be used to guard the EEZ freeing up SSN's for overseas work. I believe SSK's can be useful to evaluate potential Submarine captains & Xo's

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smoothieX12 . > Nicky • an hour ago

Well, SSKs are completely capable of strike missions.

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The Dark Knight • 2 hours ago

Here’s a crazy idea, LET OUR ALLIES BUY THEM!

We don’t need to be at the lead of everything. Let Japan and Australia
and South Korea, increase their spending and buy and deploy more of these
systems.

We have agreements in place to share the intel do we not? So what’s the
problem with them leading the charge for once, if we are so concerned with
China’s deployments of more submarines, it makes sense our allies in the
region actually take on some of the work
load

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t.c.green • 10 hours ago

This is a nice idea, and not the first time it has been suggested. But I have some concerns.

1. The 'War Is Boring' blog, which has been cited in some articles on this site, has an article from June '13 suggesting that the submarine threat from China is overstated and that the US, thanks to increased submarine construction numbers, is set to have no less than 51 boats at any time between now an 2040. Article: https://medium.com/war-is-bori...

2. How do we pay for the extra sailors and logistics? Say if we bought ten of the Japanese submarines, we would still need to train new sub crews as well as set up an all new logistical supply train. Were does the money for this come from?

3. How do you get Congress, which historically despises the idea of foreign made military equipment, to agree to acquiring SKKs? Unless you want to build them here in the US, in which case I have a feeling a lot of those cost savings are going to evaporate if not disappear entirely.

I think the US would be better off subsidizing weapons purchases by our allies. Such as Australia's recent agreement to buy Japanese submarines. What if we agreed to help them buy one or two more boats? Or help South Korea or India purchase the Japanese SSKs. Or even German if they prefer. Or look at Vietnam which is buying Kilos from Russia. Why not buy them a high tech submarine one of our Allies builds to show off how much more advanced our side is technically? It would increase the number of SSKs in the region, help boost a key ally's (Japan's or Germany's) shipbuilding economies and also ensure our allies carry their share of the burden when it comes to crewing, training and supplying the boats.

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Secret Treaties > t.c.green • 6 hours ago

"I think the US would be better off subsidizing weapons purchases by our allies."

How about they buy their own hardware. Most Americans are already tired of being the world's policeman. Don’t think they’d be any more interested in becoming the world's sugar daddy of weapons.

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smoothieX12 . > t.c.green • an hour ago

Sir, before writing anything on the subject--learn a thing or two about it. Admittedly, it is impossible to do with serious issues of submarine operations and ASW without proper background but I have also some news--most (not all) of those "blogs" out there are nothing more than fanboys' fests or retelling of Tom Clancy's fairy tales. You also have to adjust your understanding of "high tech"(c). It is not what is being told to you.

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makalaglag • 30 minutes ago


At the cost ratio of more that 5:1, 5 Japanese subs are indeed more practical than 1 US built sub. To further state that operating costs are much lower means that the USN should start considering the purchase. And why not? Japan has been buying defense armament from the USA. Japanese diesels are now considered the best and there are more companies in Japan that build and develop this engine than any other. From a marketing standpoint, this submarine could be offered to small countries at financing rates. This could equip the region against a bully.

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pumped_up_kicks • 2 hours ago

i'd much rather put the money into drones...cheaper and much more effective.

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des111168 > pumped_up_kicks • an hour ago

"Just get drones" has become the default stupid response on the Internet.

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Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have long believed that our Navy should incorporate diesel electric AIP boats into our submarine fleet. This is not at all to suggest that we abandon nuclear submarines, but bolster them with larger numbers of diesel boats. US weapons systems have been obscenely expensive for decades and I don't believe this has to do exclusively with quality and technology. Here, we get in to the old military-industrial complex money siphon discussion.

In WWII the most prolific Geman submarine was the type VII which only displaced 750 tons. That is positively tiny by today's standards, yet the Type VIIs were capable of transatlantic voyages. The submarine was hopelessly obsolete towards the end of the war, yet German sailors continued to sail in them and continued to make kills until the very end. Modern diesel AIP submarines are infinitely superior to their WWII counterparts and the rationale for a small to mid-sized submarine can make economic and military sense. Similiarly, in this age of infantry assault rifles, the venerable old bolt-action rifle is still in national arsenals as a sniper and specialty weapon.

Diesel boats have two basic deficiencies compared to nuclear submarines: They are slower and lack the submerged endurance of their nuclear counterparts. Their advantages are much lower costs and quieter operation. There are no technical barriers to prevent a diesel submarine from carrying the same weapons as a nuclear boat and in fact, many modern diesel boats carry nuclear warhead-capable cruise missiles along with their torpedoes. It would almost certainly be implausible to design a diesel electric ballistic missile submarine, though I'm not aware of any engineering challenges which would prevent it.

I think the diesel boat should have a place in our fleet.

Best regards
Doc
 

Meadowlark

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Forget diesel, look into fuel cells. The technology has progressed so far that non nuclear subs are so silent they are literally holes in the ocean.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Practically everything else about the movie was pure Hollywood, but the basic idea WAS real. There are quite a few modern diesel subs roving around the world's oceans these days, and they have been for decades. Diesel engines do NOT mean it's all old technology! I did get a smile from the "air-independent propulsion" phrase, which generally means they have to use batteries to provide the power for the screws while underwater -- never use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice!
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Forget diesel, look into fuel cells. The technology has progressed so far that non nuclear subs are so silent they are literally holes in the ocean.

The German SSKs with AIP (Type 212) use fuel cells. The diesel is used for when going to batteries or the fuel cell isn't necessary, like long transits in friendly territory or to charge batteries if the fuel cells are out or damaged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

General characteristics[edit]

In dock at HDW/Kiel

Todaro in dock at Fincantieri, Muggiano.

Displacement: 1,450 tonnes surfaced, 1,830 tonnes submerged
Length: 56 m (183.7 ft), 57.2 m (187.66 ft) (2nd batch)
Beam: 7 m (22.96 ft)
Draft: 6 m (19.68 ft)
Propulsion: 1 MTU 16V 396 diesel-engine[1]
9 HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells, 30–40 kW each (U31)
2 HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells 120 kW (U32, U33, U34)[citation needed]
1 Siemens Permasyn electric motor 1700 kW,[citation needed] driving a single seven-bladed skewback propeller

Speed: 20 knots (37 km/h) submerged, 12 knots surfaced[3]
Depth: over 700 m (2,296 ft)[4]
Range: 8,000 nautical miles (14,800 km, or 9,196 miles) at 8 knots (15 km/h)

Endurance: 3 weeks without snorkeling, 12 weeks overall
Armament: 6 x 533 mm torpedo tubes (in 2 forward-pointing asymmetric groups of left 4 + right 2 ) with 13[5] torpedoes or 24 tube mines[13]
IDAS missiles
24 external naval mines (optional)

Countermeasures: Torpedo defence system Tau, 4 launchers, 40 jammers/decoys

Sensors: STN Atlas DBQS40 sonar suite: TAS-3 passive low-frequency towed array sonar (deployed from sail)
FAS-3 passive low-, and medium-frequency hull-mounted flank array sonar
MOA 3070 mine detection sonar

Periscopes: Carl Zeiss SERO 14, with FLIR and optical rangefinder
Carl Zeiss SERO 15, with laser rangefinder

Riva Calzoni periscope masts and snorkeling systems
Kelvin Hughes Type 1007 I band navigation radar
EADS FL 1800U ESM suite
WASS hydrophones
Avio GAUDI autopilot and hydraulic systems
Kongsberg MSI-91 combat system

Crew complement: 23–27 (incl. 5 officers)

A variant of this class, the Dolphin 2 (AIP) (12 meters longer and displacing 500 more tons), are what the Israelis are getting from Germany.

The grand daddy of the modern SSK was the Kriegsmarine Type XXI; streamlined hull, faster underwater, RAM covered snorkel, automatic torpedo loading equipment, sonar absorbing tiles on the outer hull and pre-fabricated for mass production. Luckily for the Allies they weren't ready en mass until literally the end of the war. Those taken as prizes by the Allies were a real eye opener and their features were rapidly incorporated into new and refurbished US,UK and Soviet subs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine

Class overview

Name: Type XXI U-boat
Operators: Kriegsmarine
Postwar:
French Navy
German Navy
Royal Navy
Soviet Navy
United States Navy
Cost: 5.750.000 Reichsmark per boat[1]
Built: 1943–45[1]
Building: 267[2]
Planned: 1170[2]
Completed: 118[2]
Cancelled: 785[2]


General characteristics

Class & type: Submarine
Displacement: 1,621 t (1,595 long tons) surfaced
1,819 t (1,790 long tons) submerged[1]
Length: 76.7 m (251 ft 8 in)[1]
Beam: 8 m (26 ft 3 in)[1]
Draught: 6.32 m (20 ft 9 in)[1]
Propulsion: Diesel/Electric
2× MAN M6V40/46KBB supercharged 6-cylinder diesel engines, 4,000 shp (3,000 kW)
2× SSW GU365/30 double acting electric motors, 5,000 PS (3.7 MW)[1]
2 × SSW GV232/28 silent running electric motors, 226 shp (169 kW)
Speed: 15.6 kn (28.9 km/h) surfaced
17.2 kn (31.9 km/h) submerged[1]
6.1 kn (11.3 km/h) (silent running motors)
Range: 15,500 nmi (28,700 km) at 10 kn (19 km/h) surfaced
340 nmi (630 km) at 5 kn (9.3 km/h) submerged[1]
Test depth: 240 m (787 ft)[1]
Complement: 5 officers, 52 enlisted men[3]
Armament: 6 × 53.3 cm (21.0 in) torpedo tubes (bow), 23 torpedoes (or 17 torpedoes and 12 mines)
4 x 2 cm (0.8 in) anti-aircraft guns[3]

As to Doc1's question/comment regarding diesel electric ballistic missile submarines the Soviets had them in service through 1990 (Golf class with 3 SLBMs) and there are reports recently posted here at TB2K that North Korea is possibly going to field copies or re-conditioned Golf subs that the Russians sold them as scrap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf-class_submarine

Class overview

Operators: Soviet Navy
Preceded by: Zulu V class
Succeeded by: Hotel class
In service: 1958–1990
Completed: 23

General characteristics

Displacement: 2,794 tons surfaced/3,553 tons submerged (629)
2,300-2,820 tons surfaced/2,700-3,553 tons submerged (629A)
Length: 98.4 m (323 ft) (629)
98.9 m (629A)
Beam: 8.2 m (27 ft)
Draught: 7.85 m (25.8 ft) (629)
8.5 m (629A)
Propulsion: 3 × diesel engines, each 2,000 bhp (1,500 kW); 3 × electric motors, 5,200 shp (3,880 kW); 3 shafts.
Speed: surface - 17 kn, 9.500 nmi/5 kn; submerged - 12kn
Range: 70 days endurance
Test depth: 260 m (design)
300 m (maximum)
Complement: 80 (629)
83 (629A)
Armament: 3 × missile tubes
3 × Project 629 boats D-1 launch system with R-11FM missiles
Remaining boats D-2 launch system with R-13 missiles
1966 onwards 629A upgrade D-4 launch system with R-21 missiles
6 × 533 mm torpedo tubes

Also the PRC is fielding a new submarine of this type, the Type 032 submarine, which though thought to be a trials vessel, points the way towards an operational unit of this kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_032_submarine

Class overview

Name: Type 032
Operators: People's Liberation Army Navy
Preceded by: Type 041 submarine
Kilo Class
In service: Under Testing as of July 2013
Building: N/A
Planned: N/A
Completed: 1

General characteristics

Class & type: submarine
Displacement: 6,628 tons submerged
Length: 92.6 m
Beam: 10 m
Height: 17.2 m
Draft: 6.85 m
Installed power: Diesel-Electric
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 1 shaft, AIP (air-independent propulsion)
Speed: 14+ kts
Endurance: 30 days
Troops: 1 compartment for special forces
Complement: 88
Armament: 2 torpedo tubes, capable of launching 533mm Yu-6 or Yu-8 Torpedoes or larger 650 mm torpedo,
CY-1 ASuW Missiles
YJ-83 Anti Ship Missiles,
VLS for CJ-10 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (Not Confirmed)
SLBMs, SAMs
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
The last combat operational class of USN SSKs, the Barbel class.....

uss-blueback-dwg-colour-2.jpg

http://webberswarships.ca/styled-22/files/uss-blueback-dwg-colour-2.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbel-class_submarine

Boats
USS Barbel (SS-580)
USS Blueback (SS-581)
USS Bonefish (SS-582)


General characteristics

Type: Fast Attack Submarine
Displacement: 1,750 tons (1,778 t) light[1]
2,146 tons (2,180 t) full
2,637 tons (2,679 t) submerged[1]
402 tons (408 t) dead
Length: 219 ft 6 in (66.90 m) overall[1]
Beam: 29 ft (8.8 m)[1]
Draft: 25 ft (7.6 m) max[1]
Propulsion: Fairbanks-Morse diesel engines, total 9,450 bhp (7.05 MW)
2 × General Electric electric motors, total 4,800 bhp (3.6 MW)
one screw[1]
Speed: 12 knots (22 km/h) surfaced
25 knots (46 km/h) submerged[1]
Endurance: 90 minutes at full speed
102 hours at 3 knots (5.6 km/h)
Test depth: 712 ft (217 m) operating
1,050 ft (320 m) collapse
Complement: 8 officers, 69 men
Armament: 6 × 21 in (533 mm)[1] bow torpedo tubes, 18 torpedoes

Speed: 15 knots (28 km/h) surfaced, 12 knots (22 km/h) snorkeling, 25.1 knots (46.5 km/h) on battery for 90 minutes
Endurance: 1.5 hours at full speed, 102.0 hours at 3 knots (6 km/h)
Range: 19,000 miles (31,000 km) without refueling
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
GATO Class SS-224 Virtual tour. http://www.usscod.org/tour.html

Cod is widely held as the best reconstruction of a fleet submarine available. It is the ONLY one to maintain the use of laders to all spaces for tours.

Lead Boat: SS-212, U.S.S. Gato
Length: 312'
Beam: 27'
Draft: 17' (Surface trim)
Displacement: 1,800 tons (surfaced); 2,400 tons (submerged)
Speed: 20-1/4 knots (surfaced); 8-3/4 knots (submerged)
Diving Depth: 300' (test depth); 450' (emergency)
Range: 20,000 miles
Endurance: 75 days
Crew: 6-10 (officers); 60-70 (enlisted) Crew size increased as war progressed.
Deck Gun: 1 3"/50-calibre, or 1 4"/50-calibre, or 1 5"/25-calibre
Anti-Aircraft Weapons: 1 or 2-20mm Oerlikons, or 2-40mm Bofors, or 1-20mm and 1-40mm
Light Weaponry: 6-mounting points for 30-calibre, 50-calibre, or combination
Torpedoes: 10-21" torpedo tubes (6 bow, 4 stern); 24 Mark-14 torpedoes; Mark III Torpedo Data Computer
Engines: 4 GM-Winton V-16, or 4 Fairbanks-Morse 9 or 10-cylinder opposed-piston diesel/generator sets.
Motors: 4 DC high-speed electric motors, reduction gear drive, two per shaft
Radar: Short range SD air detection radar; SJ surface search radar
Sonar: JP hydrophone, upper deck; JK/QC, QB Sonar under bow
Wartime Modifications: Conning tower cut down to reduce silhouette, forward AA gun platform added, progressively heavier deck gun fitted, enhanced sonar and radar, bathythermograph, LORAN.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Another movie prominently featuring an old diesel submarine that saved the day (actually the entire planet) was the extraordinarily bad made-for-TV disaster/doomer movie "Polar Storm" (2009). I was willing to put up with the silly premise that a passing comet sheds a fragment which impacts Earth and disrupts the planet's magnetic field in ways that can only be described as scientifically VERY imaginative, but they crossed the line into total ignorance when they sailed (submerged the entire way, mind you) an old diesel submarine (the magnetic disruptions killed all the nuke subs, you see) from the US West Coast to the Mariana Trench off southern Japan in less than two days and then dived it to 7,000-plus meters to deploy two nuclear bombs to exactly counter the energy of the impact and return the Earth's tilt to its earlier axis. Not to mention the sub survived the underwater detonations of the two nuke bombs while still relatively near the explosions.

Not that this has anything to do with the thread, really, except to again show that even in Hollywood there's at least some (clearly misinformed) understanding that diesel submarines have a place in today's navies.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Another movie prominently featuring an old diesel submarine that saved the day (actually the entire planet) was the extraordinarily bad made-for-TV disaster/doomer movie "Polar Storm" (2009). I was willing to put up with the silly premise that a passing comet sheds a fragment which impacts Earth and disrupts the planet's magnetic field in ways that can only be described as scientifically VERY imaginative, but they crossed the line into total ignorance when they sailed (submerged the entire way, mind you) an old diesel submarine (the magnetic disruptions killed all the nuke subs, you see) from the US West Coast to the Mariana Trench off southern Japan in less than two days and then dived it to 7,000-plus meters to deploy two nuclear bombs to exactly counter the energy of the impact and return the Earth's tilt to its earlier axis. Not to mention the sub survived the underwater detonations of the two nuke bombs while still relatively near the explosions.

Not that this has anything to do with the thread, really, except to again show that even in Hollywood there's at least some (clearly misinformed) understanding that diesel submarines have a place in today's navies.

You've got to "revel" in the degree of schlock that the SciFi Channel puts out in some of their productions and treat them as if you're watching "Scary Movie". :spns:
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Kilo Class SSK...most common modern exported Russian submarine.
The next class the Lada will have fuel cell AIP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine

Class overview

Builders:
Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin"

Shipyard 199 "Krasnoe Sormovo", Nizhniy Novgorod (Gorkiy)

Shipyard 112,"imeni Leninskogo Komsomola", Komsolo¾sk na Amure

Shipyard "Leningradskoe Admiralteyskoe Obedinenie" (Admiralteyskie Verfi), Saint Petersburg (Leningrad)
Shipyard "Severnoe Mašinostroite¾noe Predprijatie", Severodvinsk
Operators: Soviet Navy
Russian Navy
People's Liberation Army Navy
Indian Navy
Islamic Republic of Iran Navy
Polish Navy
Romanian Naval Forces
Algerian National Navy
Vietnamese People's Navy
Preceded by: Tango-class submarine
Succeeded by: Lada-class submarine
In commission: April 1982
Building: 7
Completed: 57
Active: 48
Retired: 2

General characteristics

Displacement: Surfaced: 2,300–2,350 tons
Submerged:3,000-3,950 tons full load
Length: 70.0–74.0 m
Beam: 9.9 m
Draft: 6.5 m
Depth of hold: Operational: 240 meters
Maximum: 300 meters
Installed power: Diesel-electric
Propulsion: Diesel-electric propulsion
2 x 1000 kW Diesel generators
1 x 5,500–6,800 shp Propulsion motor
1 x fixed-pitch 6 or 7 bladed Propeller (6BL project 877) (7BL project 636)
Speed: Surfaced: 10–12 knots
Submerged: 17–25 knots
Range: With snorkel: 6,000–7,500 miles at 7 knots
Submerged: 400 miles at 3 knots
Full run: 12.7 miles at 21 knots
Endurance: 45 days
Test depth: 300 m
Complement: 52
Armament: 6/533 mm torpedo tubes
18 torpedoes
Club S anti-ship missiles (only on some export versions)
24 mines
8 SA-N-8 Gremlin or 8 SA-N-10 Gimlet Surface-to-air missiles (export submarines may not be equipped with air defense weapons)

ETA: The comment count on the article starting this thread is up to 62 now.

ETA 2: Another good discussion of the Holmes article.... http://warships1discussionboards.yu...Silent-Run-DeepOn-Diesel-Engines#.VB2REE3u3IU
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Rattling around on the Web I came across this.....

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://news.yahoo.com/japan-us-develop-fuel-cell-submarine-report-072719460.html

Japan, US to develop 'fuel-cell submarine'

AFP
August 7, 2014 8:52 PM

Tokyo (AFP) - Japan and the United States will jointly develop a fuel-cell powered submarine that can run for a month under the sea on a single charge, a report said on Friday.

The top-selling Yomiuri Shimbun reported that the unmanned, 10-metre (33-feet) long sub would be able to chart a pre-programmed course before returning to base.

The story, citing unnamed Japanese defence ministry officials, comes as Tokyo and Washington look to beef up their security alliance as they warily eye an increasingly assertive China.

Defence ministry officials could not immediately confirm the deal.

The submarine would be used for patrolling with sonar capable of detecting potential threats, but it would not be equipped with torpedos or other weaponry, the Yomiuri said.

Japan's defence ministry would earmark about 2.6 billion yen ($25 million) over the next five years to develop the high-performance fuel cell, it added.

The US military reportedly got involved when it heard about its Japanese counterparts' plans for a fuel-cell sub.

Fuel cells generate emissions-free energy through a chemical reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, and are most commonly associated with environmentally friendly vehicles.

Japan is a leader in the technology while the US a major player in hydrogen storage development.

In June, Japan and Australia announced a possible submarine development deal as they stepped up their defence ties.

...
ð‰
View Comments (153) .

__


For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.stripes.com/blogs/stripe...submarine-doesn-t-float-japan-s-boat-1.297715

Calling it a submarine doesn’t float Japan’s boat
By Erik Slavin
Stars and Stripes

Published: August 11, 2014

YOKOSUKA NAVAL BASE, Japan — Japan would kindly appreciate it if you don’t call the unmanned underwater vehicle they’re doing fuel cell research for with the United States a “submarine.”

Japanese defense ministry officials told Stars and Stripes on Monday that they’ve budgeted $26 million over the next five years to develop a high-powered fuel cell for the vehicles, known in military circles as UUVs.

However, Japan sometimes goes out of its way not to sound too militaristic, in line with its pacifist constitution.

For example, it relies on its 250,000-strong Self-Defense Forces, instead of a military. Its flat-topped Izumo-class ships aren’t carriers, they’re helicopter destroyers.

On Monday, a defense spokesman did his best to avoid the connotation of offensive capability that the word “submarine” apparently carries.

“[The] UUV is not equipped with a weapon, therefore it is not the same as an unmanned submarine,” said the spokesman, who remained anonymous, as is customary in Japan. “The current research is for the fuel cell for the UUV. There is no specific plan for joint research on the UUV itself.”

Japan’s maritime force does include several manned, torpedo-equipped, diesel-electric submarines considered to be among the best of their type.

The not-a-submarine that they’re doing fuel cell research for is a lot smaller. UUVs are the underwater version of UAVs, which are better known as unmanned planes, or drones.

The drone concept planned for the fuel cell is designed to be about 30 feet long and operate on its own for about a month.

Most of the United States’ unclassified underwater drone programs are also designed more for surveillance than attack.

For example, the military has budgeted $29 million in 2015 funds — double last year’s funding — to build a prototype of Hydra, an underwater drone dubbed “the mothership” for its planned ability to drop smaller drones from its belly.

Hydra’s enclosures “are deployed by various means, depending on the need for speed and stealth and remain deployed until awakened for employment,” according to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s current budget proposal.

Hydra would “create a disruptive capability” in coastal waters, the budget proposal stated.

The U.S. Navy has increasingly sent its coastal assets to the Asia-Pacific region in recent years. Trillions of dollars and trade pass through the often-shallow, reef-dotted South China Sea annually.

The seas surrounding China have also been the location of several low-level skirmishes over territorial rights between China and its neighbors, including Japan.

Stars and Stripes reporter Chiyomi Sumida contributed to this report.

slavin.erik@stripes.com
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-08/28/c_133603549.htm

Russian Navy launches new diesel-electric submarine

English.news.cn 2014-08-28 21:11:55

ST. PETERSBURG, Aug. 28 (Xinhua) -- The third Varshavyanka class diesel-electric submarine of Russian Navy was officially launched at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg on Thursday.

The new vessel, known as the Stary Oskol and built under the Navy's Project 636.3, will serve in Russia's Black Sea Fleet after testing.

A total of six Varshavyanka class submarines are being built for the Black Sea Fleet, with the final vessels in the series scheduled for launch in October, Navy Commander Admiral Viktor Chirkov said at the launching ceremony.

Production of the third-generation diesel submarines is expected to continue for other Russian naval fleets in 2016, Chirkov added, although no final decisions have yet been made regarding future projects.

Designed by St. Petersburg engineering firm Rubin, the Varshavyanka class submarines feature upgraded weapons systems and are reputed to be among the quietest in the world.

Editor: Shen Qing

____

ETA: Varshavyanka class = Improved Kilo with AIP and other upgrades.
 
Last edited:

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140828/19...obic-Non-Nuclear-Subs-to-Begin-in-2017--.html

Construction of 'Anaerobic' Non-Nuclear Subs to Begin in 2017 - Russian Navy
13:02 28/08/2014

ST. PETERSBURG, August 28 (RIA Novosti) – Russia will begin constructing a new generation of nonatomic submarines equipped with “anaerobic systems,” Navy Commander Adm. Viktor Chirkov said Thursday.

“Of course, the construction of diesel-electric submarines will continue. Today, we are talking about non-atomic submarines. Starting from 2017, [the construction of] a new series [of submarines] with an anaerobic system will begin and the Admiralteisky Wharf will take on the construction,” Chirkov said.

The main advantage of the air-independent energy system is an increase in the ship’s speed and the ability for it to remain submerged when recharging its batteries as opposed to surfacing to recharge them.

Meanwhile, the construction of diesel-electric submarines in Russia is in progress. The third in the series of six Varshavyanka-class submarines, built for the Crimea-based Black Sea Fleet, is expected to be launched Thursday in St. Petersburg.

The construction of all six submarines is to be completed by 2016. They are almost undetectable when submerged and feature advanced stealth technology, extended combat range and the ability to strike land, surface and underwater targets. The submarines are mainly intended for anti-ship and anti-submarine missions in relatively shallow waters.

Related News
Russia Prepares to Launch Third Varshavyanka-Class Submarine
Fifth Borei Class, Fourth Yasen Class Submarines to Form Backbone of Russian Navy
Russian Navy to Equip Fifth-Generation Submarines With Military Robots
Russian Navy Spots Foreign Submarine near Russia-Japan Border
Russia Forces US Submarine Out of Boundary Waters
Japan, US Planning Unmanned Submarine - Reports
Russia's Navy Replenishes Ship, Submarine Supply
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20140923000068


Taiwan still eager to buy foreign subs while developing domestic production

CNA
2014-09-23
12:08 (GMT+8)

Buying submarines from abroad to replace an aging fleet remains a priority for Taiwan, but it is also planning a local submarine program to show its determination to get them, a defense ministry spokesperson said Monday.

"We need to integrate the capabilities of domestic ship design companies and ship manufacturers" if Taiwan is to build its own diesel-electric submarines, said Major General Luo Shou-he.

Taiwan is hoping that the United States will share its experience and provide assistance with weaponry systems, design blueprints, system trials and other elements, Luo said, but added that the military also would like the US to help it acquire submarines from a foreign country.

Luo was responding to a report published by US media outlet Defense News on Saturday that outlined an ambitious military modernization project.

"Taiwan's navy plans to build new destroyers, frigates, corvettes and submarines in a 20-year force modernization program that will replace all the US and French-built warships in the fleet," the report said. "Details of the program will be released in November."

But a military source told CNA that the navy is set to reveal its latest plan to build warships on its own to replace its aging fleet by the end of the year.

Domestic ship manufacturers have been evaluating the possibility of building indigenous submarines, said navy officials, who stressed that Taiwan will need help from Western countries on components and systems.

Earlier this month, US chief of naval operations Jonathan Greenert acknowledged having a conversation with Taiwanese officials about Taiwan's efforts to acquire submarines, without offering any details.

In 2001, then-US president George W. Bush decided to help Taiwan acquire eight diesel electric submarines but there has been little progress since then, prompting Taiwan to seek a solution on its own.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://en.prothom-alo.com/bangladesh/news/53892/Two-submarines-being-procured-for-Tk-1500-crore

Two submarines being procured for Tk 1500 crore
Staff correspondent | Update: 09:42, Sep 20, 2014

The government has signed a deal with China for the purchase of two submarines at a cost of Tk 1500 crore. The Chinese army is presently using these two 24-year-old submarines. It is expected that Bangladesh Navy will take over these two submarines in 2018 after they are reconditioned.

The government reportedly plans to procure four submarines so that the navy can form a submarine squadron. A submarine operating authority will be formed to operate and maintain the submarines. An officer of the rear admiral rank will head this body. About 200 persons will be required for the submarine operations and several have already been trained for the purpose.

A member of the procurement committee on anonymity tells Prothom Alo, "China will supply two 035G model submarines in accordance to the agreement. The payment for these will be made over a period of five years, from 2013-14 till 2017-18. These will cost 20 crore 22 lakh US dollars or 1569 crore taka.

Considering how important it is for a less developed country to purchase submarines, Maj. Gen. (retd) Subed Ali Bhuiyan, chairman of the parliamentary standing committee for the defence ministry, says, "The decision to procure submarines was taken during the term of the BNP government. After the new government came to power, the parliamentary committee has held only one meeting. The issue of submarines hadn't been raised," He says he knows nothing about the matter.

The naval officers have no answer concerning the longevity of these old submarines, the cost of maintenance, and how these will strengthen the navy.

Dr. Iftekharuzzman, geo-political analyst and executive director of Transparency International Bangladesh, says, "We have no defence policy. It must be clarified on what basis we are making such a massive purchase. Transparency is very importance in such cases."

According to the UK-based weekly defence magazine Jane's, type 035G model submarines were manufactured in 1985 and were officially launched in December 1990.

The submarine base will be established at the Kutibdia channel in Pekua upazila, Kutubdia.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm.......

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.defensenews.com/article/...290032/Japan-Make-Major-Switch-Sub-Propulsion

Japan To Make Major Switch on Sub Propulsion
Lithium-ion Batteries Will Power Soryu-class Boats
Sep. 29, 2014 - 03:45AM | By PAUL KALLENDER-UMEZU | Comments

The Japanese submarine Hakuryu visits Guam last year. The Soryu-class boat was built with air-independent propulsion technology, which Japan plans to replace with Lithium-ion batteries for the remaining four boats in the 10-ship class. (MC1 Jeffrey Jay Price / US Navy)Filed Under
World News
Asia & Pacific Rim

TOKYO ¡ª Japan has decided to power its new batch of Soryu-class submarines with Lithium-ion batteries instead of air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology ¡ª a move that could raise eyebrows after similar types batteries were faulted for fires aboard the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

However, experts brush aside those concerns and instead say this type of technological leap increases power and performance, while reducing maintenance. It also could make Japanese subs more marketable overseas.

Yasushi Kojima, a spokesman for the Maritime Self-Defense Force (MSDF), said the change would affect the next four remaining Soryu-class submarines in Japan¡¯s 10-boat class.

Senior officials from Australia, which struck a landmark technology agreement with Japan in June, told Defense News that they are aware of the switch to the Li-ion batteries and that they are still interested in pursuing Japanese sub-building technology, perhaps even purchasing Soryu-class subs outright.

The existing Soryu-class diesel-electric submarines (16SS) use AIP technology based on Kockums Stirling engines license-built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, allowing them to stay submerged for long periods. The engines power Sweden¡¯s smaller Gotland-class submarines for up to two weeks at 5 knots.

The current Soryu-class submarines are propelled by a large electric motor that has three power sources: diesel engines, the AIP engines and main storage batteries. Diesel engines, which require oxygen for combustion, power the boats on the surface or while snorkeling. The boats can snorkel for extended periods to limit their detectability while transiting submerged (only the snorkel mast is above the water) or for short periods to quickly recharge their batteries after operating underwater. The AIP engines ¡ª which burn small quantities of diesel fuel and liquid oxygen ¡ª are used for long-range underwater cruising at low speed, and to keep the batteries topped off. The batteries are used for ultra-quiet operation as well as high-speed underwater operations, which quickly depletes them.

By shifting to Lithium-ion batteries, the new Soryus would retain their main propulsion diesels, but be equipped with more powerful and far lower maintenance batteries than lead-acid types widely in use.

The Japanese submarines have become a major item of interest by the Royal Australian Navy, which has launched an AUS $35 billion (US $33 billion) program to replace its six aging, maintenance-heavy Collins-class diesel-electric submarines with a new fleet of larger boats better able to protect vital shipping routes in both the South and East China seas.

This June, following extensive talks between Japanese Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera, Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and their Australian counterparts, Julie Bishop and David Johnston, Japan and Australia agreed to jointly develop a range of submarine technologies to these ends.

The Australian Defence Ministry had little to say when asked about the battery switch.

¡°No decision has yet been made on the design and build of the next generation of Australian submarines,¡± Defence Minister David Johnston said in a statement. ¡°However, there will be more of them ¡ª with numbers to be determined through the white paper. As the prime minister has stated, defense acquisitions have to be made on the basis of defense logic, not industry policy nor regional policy.¡±

Six of 10 Soryu-class submarines ¡ª which take about four years to build ¡ª for Japan have been completed. Japan¡¯s Defense Ministry has just requested 64.4 billion yen (US $589.5 million) to start building one new 2,900-ton Soryu submarine from April 2015, and this ¡ª and three other boats ¡ª will use Lithium-ion batteries.

The twist comes with the news that the Li-ion batteries for the Soryu subs are to be provided by GS Yuasa Battery, the same supplier of the problematical batteries used on Boeing¡¯s 787 Dreamliners, which have experienced a series of alarming and difficult-to-solve safety issues. Fires and other concerns led both Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airlines to ground fleets in January 2013, causing ¡ª for the first time since 1979 ¡ª the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to ground all 787s flying with US airlines.

Despite best efforts and ongoing investigations in the US and Japan led by the FAA, Japan Airlines this January reported further fires and meltdowns.

Discounting local media reports that Australia was close to committing itself to buying Soryu-class submarines with AIP technology, naval experts have downplayed concerns with the use of the new technology, saying, instead, it was more likely a deal-maker than a deal-breaker.

Alessio Patalano, an expert on Japan¡¯s Navy at the Department of War Studies at Kings College in London, said the military had been looking at different options in terms of propulsion systems since the early 1990s and that AIP was first studied because fuel cells and Li-ion batteries were because the technology was not sufficiently mature.

¡°Given that submarines are the tip of the sword of Japan¡¯s military posture ¡* speed and endurance are central to submarine operations and a propulsion system that can offer increased performance in those areas is particularly attractive to the Japanese Navy,¡± he said.

For the Navy, Kojima said AIP technology, which reduces the speed of submerged submarines to just a few knots, is being increasingly seen as too slow for emerging strategic uses and that the Navy regards AIP as maintenance intensive. Improvements in batteries make this technology the better long-term bet.

Bob Nugent, a consultant at naval consulting firm AMI International, said it is ¡°plausible¡± that going to Li-ion batteries will provide more speed and power.

The Soryu-class is about one-third larger than most European subs that use AIP technology, he said, adding the increased power and energy density of the batteries would allow for longer cruise and sprint bursts of speed.

¡°Li-ion-based chemistry could be made perfectly safe from the thermal runaway issues that have received heavy publicity,¡± Nugent said. ¡°There are some other options such as fuel cells/AIP, and ultracapacitors, but those also bring with them some technical risk.¡±

Nugent said Australia also has challenging range and power requirements, so Australia could actually have a shared interest in alternative propulsion design options.

Guy Stitt, AMI International¡¯s president, added that the Japanese Navy is highly capable and risk-averse and that the decision to use the technology would actually represent a ¡°leap forward¡± in submarine power and that could introduce important operational improvements.

¡°They are giving up a secondary power generation device by removing the AIP. In exchange, they intend to enlarge and extend their current power storage devices by going from lead-acid batteries to Lithium-ion batteries,¡± Stitt said. ¡°Lithium-ion batteries offer much greater energy density than current lead-acid batteries. They will have to develop some redundant safety electronics as well to monitor the stability of each battery cell.¡±

Stitt added that the Royal Australian Navy is ¡°a long way from making procurement decisions¡± on its future submarine program, and if the Japanese Navy does well enough, many other navies would be looking at procuring the Japanese solution because of the extended range and longer operational time underwater that the new battery based system potentially offered.

Patalano added that ¡°the Japanese are at the forefront of large conventional submarine development. This is a niche market but one with great potential for environmental and operational reasons.

¡°It is in Australian interests to be involved in this. In turn, the prospects of enhanced performance from a platform that features already excellent standards will make any submarine deal with Australia more interesting.¡± ¡ö

Nigel Pittaway in Melbourne, Australia contributed to this report.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
I came across this link that may be of some interest....From the San Francisco Maritime National Park Association which has on display in 1945 configuration the World War II Balao class fleet submarine USS PAMPANITO (SS-383) at Fisherman's Warf....

The Fleet Type Submarine Online

NavPers 16160
Produced for ComSubLant by
Standards and Curriculum Division
Training, Bureau of Naval Personnel

The Fleet Type Submarine

June 1946
RESTRICTED

http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/index.htm
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm...Looks like the French smell a bigger market and they're going with Lithium Ion batteries as well...

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2029

Tuesday, 30 September 2014 22:04
Exclusive: DCNS will unveil the SMX OCEAN at Euronaval 2014: A Conventional (SSK) Barracuda

Navy Recognition learned that DCNS will introduce a new submarine concept at Euronaval 2014 which be held from October 27th to 31st at Paris Le Bourget in France. The SMX OCEAN is based on a Barracuda hull, the next generation SSN of the French Navy, fitted with a conventional propulsion system (SSK) with AIP technology.

The focus of DCNS engineers in developing this concept was put on endurance and high sustained speed. We learned that the 4,700 tons SSK was designed for an endurance of 14,000 nautical miles (3 months autonomy) and a continuous transit speed of 14 knots for 1 week thanks to its Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system fitted with two fuel cells. The original nuclear propulsion system of the Barracuda design was also replaced with six diesel engines and three sets of Li Ion batteries.

Two thruster pods are deployable at the bottom of the hull to allow the submarine to maneuver while the main screw is not in action (full stop). The X rudder design is the same as on the Barracuda and allows increased maneuverability.

The SMX OCEAN SSK is fitted with one large modular VLS tube that may launch up to six MdCN vertically (much like the Virginia payload module developed by GDEB for the US Navy’s Virginia class of SSN). The submarine may also deploy F21 heavy torpedoes, SM39 Block 2 anti-ship missiles and a submarine launched version of the Mica missile (A3SM Underwater Vehicle Version) for self protection against air threats.

Finally a DCNS representative told Navy Recognition that the SMX OCEAN may deploy and recover a new UUV DCNS is working on, as well as deploy a UAV acting as remote sensor for intelligence gathering.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Seems to me that I recall either a TV show or a sci-fi movie where a submarine was surrounded by probes that were always swarming everywhere. The last "Ringworld" book in the series had the different spaceships of the different races deploying micro-probes in large numbers. More reality imitating art, maybe, or just far sighted writers.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Seems to me that I recall either a TV show or a sci-fi movie where a submarine was surrounded by probes that were always swarming everywhere. The last "Ringworld" book in the series had the different spaceships of the different races deploying micro-probes in large numbers. More reality imitating art, maybe, or just far sighted writers.

Some of the speculation on future developments include UUVs (unmanned underwater vessels) operating in conjunction with manned SSKs/SSNs to act as outriders in the same way the USN is now starting to deploy drone Zodiacs to deal with security and anti-SWARMing situations.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
They're actively deploying autonomous (as in not directed by humans but still carrying out a full mission) underwater drones in the Columbia River to track salmon. The drones do their thing and eventually surface, sending a signal so that the researchers can find them again and pick them up for re-use. If they're doing that for research on salmon, then it seems a fairly safe bet that the military has some pretty whiz-bang (maybe with special emphasis on the "bang") toys they're playing with. As far as I'm concerned, the only real difference between air and water is the density and pressure, and we KNOW there are some very advanced unmanned things flying around up there in wild blue yonder.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
They're actively deploying autonomous (as in not directed by humans but still carrying out a full mission) underwater drones in the Columbia River to track salmon. The drones do their thing and eventually surface, sending a signal so that the researchers can find them again and pick them up for re-use. If they're doing that for research on salmon, then it seems a fairly safe bet that the military has some pretty whiz-bang (maybe with special emphasis on the "bang") toys they're playing with. As far as I'm concerned, the only real difference between air and water is the density and pressure, and we KNOW there are some very advanced unmanned things flying around up there in wild blue yonder.

Yeah. Extrapolating this "fish counting" UUV to the 10 meter long UUV discussed in post #10 of this thread and "interesting" just scratches the surface.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm...Looks like the French smell a bigger market and they're going with Lithium Ion batteries as well...

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2029

Tuesday, 30 September 2014 22:04
Exclusive: DCNS will unveil the SMX OCEAN at Euronaval 2014: A Conventional (SSK) Barracuda

Navy Recognition learned that DCNS will introduce a new submarine concept at Euronaval 2014 which be held from October 27th to 31st at Paris Le Bourget in France. The SMX OCEAN is based on a Barracuda hull, the next generation SSN of the French Navy, fitted with a conventional propulsion system (SSK) with AIP technology.

The focus of DCNS engineers in developing this concept was put on endurance and high sustained speed. We learned that the 4,700 tons SSK was designed for an endurance of 14,000 nautical miles (3 months autonomy) and a continuous transit speed of 14 knots for 1 week thanks to its Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system fitted with two fuel cells. The original nuclear propulsion system of the Barracuda design was also replaced with six diesel engines and three sets of Li Ion batteries.

Two thruster pods are deployable at the bottom of the hull to allow the submarine to maneuver while the main screw is not in action (full stop). The X rudder design is the same as on the Barracuda and allows increased maneuverability.

The SMX OCEAN SSK is fitted with one large modular VLS tube that may launch up to six MdCN vertically (much like the Virginia payload module developed by GDEB for the US Navy’s Virginia class of SSN). The submarine may also deploy F21 heavy torpedoes, SM39 Block 2 anti-ship missiles and a submarine launched version of the Mica missile (A3SM Underwater Vehicle Version) for self protection against air threats.

Finally a DCNS representative told Navy Recognition that the SMX OCEAN may deploy and recover a new UUV DCNS is working on, as well as deploy a UAV acting as remote sensor for intelligence gathering.

____

ETA:

DCNS Scorpene and Scorpene+AIP cutaway views:

scorpene.jpg

http://www.naval.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/scorpene.jpg
3105495201_b7d1231f50_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/3105495201_b7d1231f50_o.jpg

DCMS Barracuda SSN and SSK cutaway views:

ssn-barracuda.jpg

http://www.naval.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ssn-barracuda.jpg

BarracudaSite02.jpg

http://www.sous-mama.org/IMG/BarracudaSite02.jpg

scale Barracuda SSN next to scale Triomphant SSBN

P9150112.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GEtV6gA23xk/TMrkbw-hV8I/AAAAAAAAClo/tYQoJ4qcD_s/s1600/P9150112.JPG

shema01.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/smarins/triompha/shema01.jpg
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.news.com.au/technology/d...kes-a-bid-for-it/story-fnpjxnlk-1227089049784

Germany fights for Australian submarine defence contract after Japan makes a bid for it

This story was published: 17 hours ago October 14, 2014 7:37AM

A HIGH-POWERED German submarine delegation is in Canberra to demand an open competition for the nation’s biggest ever defence contract — a new navy submarine.

German giant ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the parent company of leading submarine builder HDW, has launched an aggressive bid to head off Japan for the multi-billion dollar job.

And in good news for thousands of shipyard workers at the ASC yard in Port Adelaide and elsewhere around the nation, TKMS said it would be happy to build the boats in Australia.

The company has built more than 160 diesel powered submarines and it has promised the Abbott Government that it could deliver 12 “ready for war” conventional submarines to replace the controversial Collins Class boats for $20 billion.

FOREIGN SUBS: Would cost Australia $29 billion

It said the boats could be either built at its shipyard in Kiel, Germany or at the ASC yard in Adelaide “risk free under a fixed price and fixed delivery contract”.

During the last election campaign the Coalition Government promised to build the boats at ASC in Port Adelaide, but it appeared to back away from the pledge in favour of the Japanese Soryu Class boat.

Navy shipbuilding expert Dr John White told a Senate inquiry yesterday that the Soryu option was “challenging” because Japan had never exported a submarine.

He also called for the establishment of a Submarine Construction Authority to oversee the vital project.

TKMS has guaranteed through-life support costs at between 10 and 20 per cent of the cost for Collins saving taxpayers billions of dollars.

The final decision on the submarine selection process will be included in the government’s 2015 Defence White Paper due out mid-next year.

Chief Financial Officer with TKMS Dieter Rottsieper is in Canberra this week on a high-level lobbying mission.

He told News Corp Australia that the company had completed a feasibility design of a new 90-metre-long, 4000-tonne boat — the HDW Class 216 — that met all the operational requirements of the Royal Australian Navy.

The existing HDW Class 214, that carries about 80 per cent of the systems to be used on the new boat, has a range of about 19,000km which is similar to the Collins boats.

“The main difficulty will be the integration of systems especially the acoustics and combat systems,” he said.

The Australian boats will use a US Navy combat system, but Mr Rottsieper said integrating American war fighting technology would not be a problem.

“We don’t see that as high risk. It is important to not only know how but to know why,” he said.

Unlike the Collins Class boats the intellectual property for the HDW boats is owned by TKMS and not the German Government.

“We would transfer all the technology to Australia,” Mr Rottsieper said.

“We have a schedule to deliver the first [Australian] boat by 2026.”
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
So not only are diesel submarines in service and undergoing further technological development, but national governments are actively fighting each other (bureaucratically) just to build them! I was amazed at the "fixed cost" statement ... who the hell builds military weapons (especially multi-BILLION dollar weapon systems) that way these days? Contracts like these can be decades-long affairs, and who knows what the global economy will be like in ten years! I'm cynical enough to think the exceptions to the contract must be the size of an encyclopedia set ...
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
I'm cynical enough to think the exceptions to the contract must be the size of an encyclopedia set ...

Plus the extensions and revisions.
You have NO idea.

Brother ran in to this developing Athena for Raytheon.
He was using Spiral Development methodology and R uses a straight line project dev methodology to calculate over-runs.

NIGHT MARE!!!!!
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Came across this article from 2011....Same discussion.

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://csis.org/blog/nuclear-vs-diesel-submarines

Nuclear vs. Diesel Submarines
Oct 18, 2011

By Jonah Friedman

In recent months there have been a number of calls for building diesel-powered submarines for the United States Navy. In two separate Defense News articles in June and September Gary Schmitt and J. Scott Shipman, respectively, urged the Navy to build such vessels. They cite a number of advantages for diesel subs, both operationally and in terms of cost. However, while diesel submarines may enjoy some advantages over nuclear bots, the significant drawbacks to this form of propulsion should be kept in mind as well.

Schmitt and Shipman highlight some of the most important benefits of diesel submarines compared to their nuclear-powered counterparts. Perhaps chief among these is cost. They both note that one of the biggest challenges facing the Navy today – and one which it will continue to face in the coming years – is a lack of submarines in sufficient numbers to maintain a presence in areas of interest to the United States. Shipman in particular points to the need to augment the U.S. naval presence in the Indian Ocean to deal with piracy, and in the western Pacific to monitor a rising China. Leaving aside the question of how effective submarines would be in fighting piracy or how many are truly needed in the Pacific, the concerns surrounding a shrinking navy is a legitimate one. One of the chief causes for this contraction is the extremely high cost of nuclear-powered submarines. As Schmitt and Shipman note, the cost of a Virginia-class submarine is in the area of $2 billion, whereas the cost of a diesel boat is around $500 million. Given these prices, the U.S. Navy could certainly procure more submarines (and have a correspondingly greater presence around the world) if it pursued diesel instead of nuclear versions.

The other major benefit conferred by diesel subs relates to their operational capabilities. While early diesel technologies greatly impinged on the length of time a submarine could remain submerged and deployed, new technologies have improved this time. Through the Second World War, submarines needed to either surface or use snorkels in order to obtain the oxygen needed to recharge their batteries and continue operating. This both left them vulnerable to attack and reduced their range, since they could only be submerged for several days at a time. Modern diesel submarines utilizing air-independent propulsion can remain submerged for about a month. Moreover, as Schmitt points out, unlike a nuclear-powered sub, a diesel sub can turn off its engine and sit on the ocean floor “deadly silent, while monitoring whatever passes over and around it.” (Although it should be noted that a nuclear sub could also switch off its propellers and also remain extremely quiet)

Finally, proponents of diesel submarines note the large number of other states which use diesel subs, and the potential for the U.S. to enter this market and benefit economically. Both Schmitt and Shipman argue that our allies who use such vessels would be happy to purchase U.S.-made diesel subs. Shipman in particular cites the benefits for the domestic economy and the revitalization of industrial infrastructure that a boom in diesel submarine construction would create.

While these advantages are notable, the disadvantages of diesel subs (at least as compared to their nuclear counterparts) are significant. Although the cost of nuclear submarines per unit may be more than diesel boats, the numbers given by the latter’s proponents may not be realistic. While we have a good idea about the cost of, say, Virginia-class subs (since we have already built several of them), diesel boats have not been built in this country in decades. Shipman notes that it is possible that the $500 million estimate for a diesel sub could be overly optimistic given our current procurement practices. He cites some Navy sources that have put the cost of a diesel submarine at about $1 billion. This would still be cheaper than a nuclear version, but significantly less so.

Operationally, there are advantages which nuclear subs possess which cannot be matched by diesel boats. The most obvious of these relates to the amount of time they can remain submerged and deployed. Whereas air-independent propulsion technology allows submarines to remain submerged for a few weeks, there is no limit to the amount of time a nuclear submarine can remain submerged (barring the limits of the crew). This allows for nuclear subs to be deployed and submerged for far greater periods than diesel boats, and it has implications for their operational performance as well. While the Navy could build more diesel subs to enhance its presence in certain parts of the world, those subs would necessarily need to refuel and recharge more frequently than their nuclear counterparts. The amount of time they could spend completing their missions (such as reconnaissance or tracking other submarines) would therefore be reduced. Although there would be fewer subs in the fleet if they were all nuclear, these vessels would be able to devote a greater proportion of their time to their missions, and they would be less vulnerable and more efficient. Additionally, the greater power output provided by nuclear reactors allows nuclear submarines to travel significantly faster than their diesel counterparts.

With regard to the interest of other states in purchasing U.S.-built diesel subs, it may be that there is a market for such vessels in which the U.S. could excel. However, it is also true that other states see the value of pursuing nuclear propulsion for their submarines, and have been making efforts to develop it. The Nuclear Threat Initiative cites Brazil and India in particular as enthusiasts for nuclear-powered subs, and notes that India plans to eventually build about half a dozen of them as strategic nuclear weapon platforms. Argentina is another state which has recently announced its intention to develop nuclear submarine propulsion. Shipman mentions that “modern diesel submarines have proliferated over the last 25 years,” and that “as many as 39 countries have diesel boats.” The implication might have been that the proliferation of diesel submarines shows that other states have recognized their advantages while the United States continues to ignore them. Yet it seems clear that at least some of these states (such as the ones mentioned above) would have nuclear propulsion for their submarines if they could do so.

It is important to keep these disadvantages in mind, as well as the significant benefits derived from nuclear propulsion, and to consider the most appropriate uses for diesels. Diesels are best used in areas closer to shore, and their comparatively shorter range and endurance make them somewhat less suitable for long-term reconnaissance missions or for traversing vast expanses of open ocean to fulfill their missions. Their slower speeds might make them more appropriate for defending against other vessels closer to their bases. The need for the U.S. Navy to project power around the world limits the usefulness of diesel subs, given these drawbacks.

The Navy’s nuclear submarines provide both a virtually invulnerable deterrent force in the form of its missile boats, and a persistent attack capability in the form of its attack subs. These assets should continue to form the core of the U.S. Navy’s submarine fleet. Yet Schmitt and Shipman are correct in their assessment of the strategic challenge the Navy faces in ensuring it has enough vessels to fulfill its tasks. An alternative to the diesel option (mentioned, but not favored by Schmitt) might be unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs). These would be cheaper than building more nuclear subs, and would be able to fulfill “’dull and dangerous’ missions” that are currently done by some attack submarines. Although the effectiveness of UUVs have yet to be fully realized, investment in this area may make more sense than building a new fleet of diesel submarines. A realistic and balanced assessment of the capabilities of various alternatives vis a vis nuclear subs should yield a better sense of which benefits can be achieved by their adoption.


Jonah Friedman is a Research Intern for the Project on Nuclear Issues. The views expressed above are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Project on Nuclear Issues or the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Related Programs:
PONI Debates the Issues Blog
Project on Nuclear Issues
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.asiasentinel.com/econ-business/taiwan-submarine-race/

Taiwan to Join Submarine Race
Written by Jens Kastner
TUE,21 OCTOBER 2014

Newest plans greeted with cautious optimism

Thirteen years after the Bush Administration promised Taiwan eight diesel-electric submarines, and 11 years after the Taiwanese walked away from an opportunity to obtain used but top-notch Italian boats, cautious optimism is emerging that the island’s navy will in the coming decade command a submarine fleet that can deter both Chinese aggression and Vietnam from coming too close for comfort in the Taiwan-controlled parts of the South China Sea.

Military officials here recently said Taiwan will build its four of its own 1,500-tonne displacement diesel-electric attack submarines by 2025, with a budget of about NT$150 billion (US$4.9 billion). The design blueprint is expected to be completed by year’s end. Thus Taiwan appears eager to join the littoral nations of the South China Sea in an undersea competition for primacy. Malaysia has bought French subs, Indonesia subs from South Korea, Vietnam submarines from Russia. Defense spending as a whole across the region has skyrocketed as smaller countries seek to counter the growing hegemonism of China over the sea.

Although the design and construction of modern submarines counts among the trickiest of tasks for the defense industry, and countries that build diesel-electric boats generally do not sell arms to Taiwan, observers with a close eye on Taiwan military matters told Asia Sentinel that the story does have plausible elements.

“It doesn’t sound terribly realistic to have the blueprints ready in two months, but it is not impossible to come up with the local design of a submarine,” said Siemon Wezeman, Senior Researcher with the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute’s Arms and Military Expenditure Program.

“Taiwan has a well-established and quite high-tech shipbuilding industry, and using experience of their two Dutch subs acquired in the 1980s they could probably come up with a design, as the general design of the two subs is still valid and could just be copied.”

He added that the US, which in the late 1950s stopped producing diesel-electric boats and now builds only nuclear ones, could help Taiwan with the design and supply most of the parts Taiwan doesn’t produce, such as sonar and combat systems; and help Taiwan with the integration, so that “in the end, after a decade or so, Taiwan may have new submarines that will probably work quite well.”

US Naval War College strategy professor James Holmes said it’s possible Taipei could make it happen “if it settles for something very basic and resists the urge to pile on every gadget shipwrights can conceive of.”

Recurring reports that Taiwan wants to build its own subs have emerged ever since it became doubtful that the sale of eight diesel-electric submarines the Bush Administration agreed to in April 2001 would materialize. Although Washington has basically promised them, it hasn’t agreed to any specifics partly because Taiwan didn’t make up its mind on submarines and the high price of them, and partly because the US did not have an actual design of conventional subs available for sale.

Except for the episode in 2003 when Taiwan turned down Italy’s decommissioned Sauro-Class boats, ideas to use European subs or designs sold via the US came to nothing, which is hardly surprising given that the European countries possessing conventional sub technology as well as Russia and Japan did not choose to profoundly mess up their lucrative business relations with China.

The solution that ostensibly suggested itself was that the Taiwanese build their own boats, so that during the presidency of Chen Shui-bian (2000-2008) talk emerged of the Diving Dragon, a project that envisioned that Taiwan's China Shipbuilding Corporation (CSBC) would build boats in Taiwan using technology transfers. However, neither were the Taiwan Navy or the Ministry of National Defense (MND) convinced due to the projected high price, likely delays and problems with quality standards that could potentially result from local construction. The doubts were based on the inconvenient fact that China Shipbuilding has so far welded together container and bulk carriers that are basically big steel boxes, very much unlike modern submarines, which are highly compartmented and require sophisticated sensors and combat systems. It was also warned that CSBC will find it difficult to build on someone else’s design while trying to obtain all the subsystems from the original vendors.

Analysts believe the Diving Dragon will almost inevitably run into profound difficulties as soon as CSBC starts altering the original design, or having to find replacement vendors for subsystems.

Nonetheless, plans started taking shape shortly after President Ma Ying-jeou in April told the US’s Center for Strategic and International Studies of a new “consensus in Taiwan” to build the submarines domestically. In late May, the Navy Command Headquarters confirmed that the CSBC and the Ship and Ocean Industries Research and Development Center (SOIC) have been appointed to weld a new section of hull onto Taiwan’s two 70-year-old Guppy-class subs, a move reportedly meant as a practice session for Taiwan’s welders. Then officials began talking about the reverse-engineering of Taiwan’s other two boats, the Dutch-built Sea Dragon and the Sea Tiger. In mid-November the Sea Dragon successfully tested two submarine-launched Harpoon missiles Taiwan acquired from the US.

“The Taiwan Navy and the Ministry of National Defense have been analyzing Taiwan's potential to build submarines for a very long time and have clearly concluded that they have the ability to develop and build the ship,” said Rick Fisher, Senior Fellow, International Assessment and Strategy Center. “The U.S. Department of Defense is now considering its policy response to Taiwan submarine program, but there a good chance it will decide to be supportive.”

Fisher added, however, that the DoD doesn’t make the final decision, the US President does, “whose key advisors’ views regarding the indigenous Taiwan sub program are not known.”

The Japan angle?

Meanwhile, John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org, a US-based think tank, agreed that that Taiwan’s “decent shipbuilding industry” could build someone else’s design.

“They have been talking about new submarines for a long time, but kept hitting dead ends,” he said. “The only thing that has changed recently is that Japan is now exporting weapons, and the Japanese have some jim-dandy submarines.”

Chen Ching Chang, a political scientist at Japan's Ritsumeikan Asia Pacific University, believes that Japan would consider selling “some of its mothballed subs if Sino-Japanese relations continued to deteriorate and if the [China-friendly] Kuomintang lost power to the [Japan-friendly] Democratic Progressive Party in Taiwan’s 2016 Presidential Elections.”
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/26/us-taiwan-submarines-idUSKBN0IF0YD20141026

Taiwan eyes homegrown submarines after 13-year wait on U.S. deal

By J.R. Wu
TAIPEI Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:21pm EDT
0 Comments

(Reuters) - Taiwan is moving ahead with plans to build its own submarines, with an initial design to be completed by the year-end, after lengthy delays in getting eight vessels under a 2001 U.S. defense deal and as China's navy expands rapidly.

While major obstacles remain, such as overcoming significant technical challenges and what would almost certainly be strenuous objections from Beijing, a political consensus has emerged in Taiwan in recent months that it can wait no longer, officials and lawmakers said.

China is Taiwan's largest trading partner and economic ties have warmed since China-friendly President Ma Ying-jeou came to power in 2008. But Beijing regards Taiwan as a renegade province and has never renounced the use of force to bring the proudly democratic island under its control.

Taiwan has four aging submarines including two that date back to World War Two, although its military is otherwise considered generally modern. China, however, has 70 submarines alone, along with dozens of surface ships and a refurbished aircraft carrier, although that vessel is not yet fully operational.

A recent Taiwanese government defense report said China would be capable of a successful invasion by 2020.

"Our determination to build indigenous submarines is very firm. The navy is very actively pushing this matter," said Major-General David Lo, spokesman for Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense.

"The Republic of China (Taiwan) will not engage in an arms race with China. We hope to acquire submarines to strengthen our self-defense."


TAIWAN WANTS ASSISTANCE

Captain Lin Chau-luen, head of the ministry's naval force build-up and planning section, said during a recent conference in Taipei that plans encompassing the capacity and tonnage of a diesel-electric submarine would be finished by the end of the year.

The design of weapons systems would come later, with construction possibly starting in two years, he said, without saying how many vessels Taiwan wanted to build.

Telephoned by Reuters, Lin declined to give further details, saying he was only permitted to speak with the media at public engagements. Ma's office and the Foreign Ministry referred questions to the Ministry of National Defense.

Lo said it was too soon to make public comments on how far plans for homegrown submarines had advanced, but added that Taiwan would need assistance from the United States or other parties with experience building submarines.

Taiwan was not currently in any formal talks with foreign defense contractors, officials said.

Experts said European governments would likely prevent their defense companies from getting involved to avoid China's wrath.

"China is resolutely opposed to any form of military technological exchanges or cooperation or weapons sales from foreign countries to the Taiwan region," the Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement sent to Reuters.


NO ORDERS

An official at the Taiwanese Ministry of National Defense, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Taiwanese industry could build basic surface ships but did not have experience with underwater vessels.

Shipbuilder CSBC Corp Taiwan, a company with the sole capability in Taiwan to build submarines, has indicated it was able to build a pressurized hull, the official said, but added that constructing a submarine was very complex.

A CSBC executive said the company had not received any orders and referred further questions to the government.

Taiwan first began considering building its own submarines in the early 2000s, when the deal with Washington to acquire eight diesel-electric submarines in 2001 got bogged down because of technical and political constraints.

Since the United States operates nuclear-powered submarines, Taiwan would have needed to buy vessels from foreign defense contractors or obtained enough technical details from Washington or other parties to refurbish older submarines acquired from the open market. But European countries, for example, balked in helping at the time for fear of damaging ties with China.

The United States was also concerned about the security of any technology transfers. Another roadblock early on was in Taiwan, where political infighting over budget allocations held up funding.

Washington is committed to assist Taiwan defend itself under the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act.

"The U.S. has received Taiwan's requests for diesel submarines. These requests remain under interagency review," said Marine Lieutenant-Colonel Jeffrey Pool, a Pentagon spokesman, referring to the 2001 deal.

A U.S. State Department official, without mentioning the submarine agreement, said Washington would continue to help Taiwan maintain sufficient self-defense capabilities.

"We carefully evaluate Taiwan's defensive needs on an ongoing basis and will consult with Congress as required before announcing any additional major arms sales to Taiwan," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.


CROWDED WATERS

Taipei's plans come as other regional navies expand their own submarine fleets in part to create a strategic deterrent against China's growing naval assertiveness in Asian waters.

Naval analysts say the stealth of a well-run submarine makes it a classic asymmetric weapon, complicating the strategic calculations of a potential foe with a larger navy.

Japan is gradually expanding its own fleet of advanced diesel-electric submarines, while Vietnam recently put its first two full-sized submarines to sea, with a further four diesel-electric vessels to be delivered within the next two years as part of a $2.6 billion deal with Russia.

For Taiwan, the balance of power favors China, at a time when many Taiwanese remain wary of autocratic China's designs on the island.

China's recent restrictions on how Hong Kong will elect its next leader in 2017 have also stirred concern in Taiwan should it ever come under Beijing's control.

"(China) is militarily stronger and stronger, while our submarines are older and older," said Lin Yu-fang, a ruling Nationalist party lawmaker in the Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee at Taiwan's parliament. "We have to have something to build up the confidence in democracy in Taiwan."

The opposition Democratic Progressive Party has also advocated an indigenous submarine program.

A report by the Project 2049 Institute, a U.S.-based think tank specializing in Asian security issues, said a viable fleet of at least eight submarines operating as one component of a broader operational system could deny China's military uncontested control of the waters surrounding Taiwan.



(Additional reporting by Greg Torode in Hong Kong, Ben Blanchard in Beijing and David Brunnstrom, David Alexander and Andrea Shalal-Esa in Washington; Editing by Dean Yates)

______

The "simple answer" to all of this is build a 500 - 800 ton displacement "starter" and go from there. Heck if all Taiwan is looking to do is "coastal work", something that size, akin to the Kriegsmarine's Type VII boats of WW2 or the post war Type 206 class would fit that bill. You've got to start someplace....
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://nextnavy.com/easing-into-sub-building-lessons-for-future-proliferators/

Easing Into Sub Building: Lessons For Future Proliferators

by admin on November 2, 2014

Let’s talk sub proliferation! It’s no secret that, for any “on-the-move” developing country, an operational indigenous submarine production capability is the “hot” “must-have” naval accessory.

And that’s great. Done right, sub production is an audacious industrial achievement–an exercise in manufacturing mastery, where precision, quality and engineering innovation come together to ensure the survival of humans hundreds of meters below surface.

It’s not entirely a win-win proposition, though. Aside from the prestige of joining a small-but-growing club of elite international manufacturers, sub production–if a country can’t export their products or maintain a steady production line–comes with surprisingly few lasting strategic or economic benefits. Unless fed, all that fancy infrastructure just…crumbles.

But developing countries just don’t seem to care. I don’t know what it is, but, with subs, rationality just seems to go out the window. Egged on by an eager array of sub salesmen (from France, Germany, Sweden, South Korea, Russia, Italy….even Spain), far too many countries underestimate the steep price of admission as they rush off down the “standard” developmental pathway–going from buying sophisticated foreign subs to building SSKs from kits/prefab modules and then moving to licensed production and beyond.

130911-N-ZZ999-001First Subs Are Usually Pricey, Decade-long Experiences in Pain:

It’s often a case of countries biting off too much complexity, too soon. Frankly, I am unaware of many countries whose initial experience in large-scale, sophisticated submarine manufacture ended happily, with a product delivered on-time, on-budget and trouble-free.

Many countries find their flirtation with submarine production to be too big of an investment to complete, and quit, mid-program. Argentina failed with the TR-1700. Greece’s court-encumbered effort to domestically produce the Papanikolis Class (German Type 214) is a festering sore that is likely not to be repeated soon.

Sustainment is a problem. Several countries produced good subs (and darn good subs at that), but found the investment too hard to sustain. Australia’s experiment with the Collins Class sub may well have driven that country out of the sub production business. Even the Netherlands may step out, and not replace their well-regarded (and home-produced) Walrus Class.

But, difficult as it is, sub production is here to stay, and, despite flailing in their initial efforts, other builders will stay in the game, building/developing subs outside they purvey of the the standard “legacy” sub designers/builders–Sweden, Germany, Russia and the U.S. But moving from kit-built to producing a foreign design and then to domestic production of a local design is not a fun process.

Pain just seems to be part of the agenda.

petersburg in peril!Listing the Trauma:

Rough starts are legion.

Brazil’s experiment with producing German Type 209/1400’s (the Tupi and Tikuna Class) was a mess–It took the first Brazilian-built Sub nine years to go from a keel authentication into naval service.

China–and we won’t belabor China’s evolution here as we are focusing primarily on the proliferation of Western designs–mass-produced shoddy knockoffs of Russian subs for decades, and then endured her share of issues and challenges as the country transitioned to home-grown designs.

India’s effort to kit-build two S-44 Shishumar Class (a German Type 209/1500) was a rough experience (years late and costing twice as much as the German-built subs), and their effort to build a French Scorpene (Project 75) is probably going to see the first hull enter service after an epic ten-year build cycle.

Spain’s experience producing the S-70 Agosta Class with French help was rough, and their subsequent independent effort has led to an overweight S-80 Class.

Pakistan’s first home-built Agosta-90B Class sub took more than ten years to build.

The outcome of Indonesia’s effort have South Korea’s Daewoo Corporation hand over enough knowhow to build a Type 209/1400 has yet to be determined.

(I’ll reserve a discussion of Iran and North Korea’s sub production efforts for later.)

class_walrus2_splash_emergenvy_surfacingWho Did Well and Why?

So…out of all the pain and suffering accumulated by our intrepid cadre of aspiring sub-builders, has anybody identified the markers of success? Surely some wizened old coots in Langley (and in a host of similar institutions) have boxes full of half forgotten dissertations with anodyne titles like “Industrial indicators for favorable completion of pressure hull manufacture: A comparative study between states”?

If so, they’re not sharing. But, by now, us lowly open-source-dependent folks have a big enough of a data set to start teasing out some ideas as to why some countries have been more successful their first time producing than not. In my cursory survey, Italy, Turkey and South Korea stand out….(I might have elevated Pakistan to this list, but for their small program and their ugly experience with their first Agosta).

It’s not that these countries were hugely successful in their first attempts either, but Italy, Turkey and South Korea stand out in that their sub-building efforts have been relatively less trouble-free in comparison to all the rest.

What made them different?

Infrastructure: By and large, they all had a strong foundation in naval or commercial ship-building infrastructure.

Funding: All amply funded their programs, orienting themselves towards supplying either large operational sub fleets or the export market…or both.

Type: All started with a German design and German technical support (!)

Two of the countries had the benefit from being in, essentially, the same military/industrial bloc as their primary supplier, allowing for a relatively smooth and orderly progression as native suppliers replaced foreign-sourced kit.

I also suspect that all the countries had a good understanding of their national engineering and manufacturing capabilities, and they consciously didn’t over-reach or demand a higher percentage of locally-sourced sub-ready materials than their economies could readily supply.

But that’s not all.

25_17067_227a34f42ee849cBuilding ‘Em Trumps Reverse Engineering:

What is really interesting about the countries with more “successful” sub-building programs is that several of those countries had tinkered with mini-sub production. (Now, I’ll caveat this by saying that national minisub development/manufacture aren’t covered deeply by the usual open-source outlets (hint, hint guys) so take this observation with a big grain of salt, OK?).

Caveats aside, contributions from mini-sub production is something that, I suspect, is underestimated as a risk-reduction exercise. Mini-sub programs are easy to overlook and a little harder for host countries to justify–they’re not shining and dramatic examples of national manufacturing prowess, and, unless produced in numbers, they don’t turn the needle strategically. They’re often dismissed as curiosities–or low-status gear that only an impoverished, desperate country like North Korea or Iran would use (which, uh, they, um have actually used to, ah, sink stuff).

But that’s the point.

Mini-subs–successful or not–give the builder a taste for the complexities of sub manufacture, and allow the building country a low-pressure/low cost way to develop a small cadre of competent manufacturers, designers, operators, maintainers and suppliers before jumping into a “large-scale” SSK production program. A mini-sub failure is a lot less of a big deal than, say, screwing up your shaft alignment in your first full-scale SSK.

I’ll even wager that “learning-by-doing” with mini-subs offers more longer-term advantages to the host country than, say, a wholesale effort to reverse-engineer larger-scale projects or intel takings. China may have produced a ton of low-tech Russian knock-off subs, but all that production-by-reverse-engineering didn’t keep China from suffering in their transition to (cough) largely home-designed (cough cough) submarine production.

There’s a world of difference in having a blueprint to follow and understanding, through first-hand experience, just why the sub you want to build is built the way that they are.

If pressed, I’d even suggest that mini-subs do more for the host-country’s basic sub-building infrastructure than, say, refits of existing submarines. Certainly, conducting successful refits of existing platforms should be interpreted as a potential indicator of future sub-building (I’ve written about that here), but…in itself, successful refits don’t guarantee that an initial attempt at sub building will be pain-free. Lots of countries in the list of “pain” above had been successfully maintaining their boats for years and refitting ‘em.

scope_tijgerhaai2_uss_america_med_oct93_1_smallThe Future:

Submarines will continue to proliferate, and countries will continue to try and build their own boats. But it’ll be interesting to see if other countries learn from their predecessors–or if they continue to make the same mistakes everybody else has made–and end up spending, on average, a decade or more building their first home-brewed boat.

But by now, there’s plenty of data to allow aspiring sub-builders to make more informed decisions. Given the importance–and greater appreciation of–unmanned or smaller subs, I’d expect quite a few other countries are out there right now, tinkering with their own “small boat” design (How is Chile’s domestic-built Crocodile Class mini-sub-building effort doing anyway?).

If mini-subs do actually serve as a positive indicator for successful initial prosecution of full-scale sub production, I’ll also be quite interested to see how the nexus of South American sub-oriented smuggling hybridize and inform future sub-building efforts in South America. Plenty of U.S. naval innovations came from smugglers, and, well, at some point, somebody’s gotta break that lock Sweden, Germany and France have on the export sub market!
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Do you even need a full-size sub with full-size torpedoes to sink many of the warships being deployed today? Aircraft carriers and battleships are not nearly as popular today as they used to be, so the torpedoes don't have to be bigger (with correspondingly bigger warheads) to sink the really big ships. Now if you want to launch SLBM's (submarine launched ballistic missiles) from one side of the globe to the other, then you DO need the big boys. But if you're willing to accept the risk of launching shorter-range missiles, then there's always the cruise missile option. If all you want to do is spy, then you REALLY don't need a big submarine to house today's ultra-compact electronics. And finally, if you can only keep your empire-building urge confined to the relatively local neighborhood, then you also don't need long range in your subs.

All of which is covered in the above article under the "it's a national prestige thing." Essentially, a lot of countries aren't building for the potential mission but rather for the glory of the flag. Which often doesn't work out so well when the bullets start flying. But hey, your guys look REALLY GREAT with their shiny new toys!
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Do you even need a full-size sub with full-size torpedoes to sink many of the warships being deployed today? Aircraft carriers and battleships are not nearly as popular today as they used to be, so the torpedoes don't have to be bigger (with correspondingly bigger warheads) to sink the really big ships. Now if you want to launch SLBM's (submarine launched ballistic missiles) from one side of the globe to the other, then you DO need the big boys. But if you're willing to accept the risk of launching shorter-range missiles, then there's always the cruise missile option. If all you want to do is spy, then you REALLY don't need a big submarine to house today's ultra-compact electronics. And finally, if you can only keep your empire-building urge confined to the relatively local neighborhood, then you also don't need long range in your subs.

All of which is covered in the above article under the "it's a national prestige thing." Essentially, a lot of countries aren't building for the potential mission but rather for the glory of the flag. Which often doesn't work out so well when the bullets start flying. But hey, your guys look REALLY GREAT with their shiny new toys!

Considering the kind of hurt a modern version of the Type VII U-Boat (870 ton displacement) or the post war Type 205 (500 tons displacement) could/can bring to the party in terms of naval mines, cruise missiles, torpedoes or combat swimmers is more than enough IMHO to give pause.
 

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
The Nazi Germans had some very sophisticated and advance submarine designs towards the end of war. They used the snorkel system to avoid having to surface to recharge batteries and be destroyed by Allied anti sub planes. The combination of radar, a searchlight mounted in the nose and heavy firepower made German U-Boats obsolete by June of 1943.

Given advances in hull material, electronics, noise suppression technology a diesel electric boat is feasible. The Dutch have been building them for years and have produced some very combat effective submarines. The USA pretty much got out of the business after Rickenbacker? fully locked in Nuclear subs.

The Germans perfected a hydrogen peroxide powered boat of all things. They also perfected acoustic torpedoes among other things.

The Chinese in particular have allocated significant resources to their submarine force. I think they have 300 U-boats and are a direct threat to both Taiwan and the USA. If Japan and Germany had ever executed a policy of U-boat quarantine on both US coasts, we would have lost World War Two.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Give due credit to the dirigibles in ending the threat from the U-boats! According to one show I watched, NO convoy that was escorted by a dirigible was ever attacked by U-boats. Apparently the U-boat captains were terrified of the things. With planes the U-boats only had to submerge and wait until the planes either lost them when the planes flew off and came back again to reacquire their targets or the planes ran low on fuel and left, but the dirigibles apparently stayed right on top of their U-boat targets until the U-boats were either sunk or the U-boats fled the engagement. At that time, simply staying slightly submerged (for example, while using the snorkel) was no real protection against an aerial assault, if only because the U-boats looked like giant shadowy whales that close to the surface.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
The Nazi Germans had some very sophisticated and advance submarine designs towards the end of war. They used the snorkel system to avoid having to surface to recharge batteries and be destroyed by Allied anti sub planes. The combination of radar, a searchlight mounted in the nose and heavy firepower made German U-Boats obsolete by June of 1943.

Given advances in hull material, electronics, noise suppression technology a diesel electric boat is feasible. The Dutch have been building them for years and have produced some very combat effective submarines. The USA pretty much got out of the business after Rickenbacker? fully locked in Nuclear subs.

The Germans perfected a hydrogen peroxide powered boat of all things. They also perfected acoustic torpedoes among other things.

The Chinese in particular have allocated significant resources to their submarine force. I think they have 300 U-boats and are a direct threat to both Taiwan and the USA. If Japan and Germany had ever executed a policy of U-boat quarantine on both US coasts, we would have lost World War Two.

By the end of the War, the Type XXI "Elektroboot" was sporting rubber sonar absorbing tiles, snorkels with radar absorbing materials, radar warning gear, radar, automated torpedo handling gear and the ability to do 20 knots underwater on a much bigger battery package and active sonar decoys. They were "just" 18 months too late with all of this, even with the USN's hunter killer groups (CVEs with ASW Avenger aircraft working with DDs and DEs along with the broken Enigma code) the Battle of the Atlantic would have gone into a nasty round two.
 

Last Resort

Veteran Member
The Nazis tried very hard to embargo shipping from North America to Great Britain, see The Battle of the Atlantic. They failed hard. The Japs didn't have enough subs to try on the Pacific side what the Nazis did, plus they had much greater distances to cover.

As a point of perspective on volume, the Allies suffered 3,675 ships sunk from 1939-1945. The Nazis lost 783 submarines, just in the Atlantic! The quantities of subs and surface vessels deployed by armed forces today are dwarfed by what was produced in WWII. China's supposed 300 subs are mostly littoral combat types, based on old Russian models. Fine for national defense or power projection in the Taiwan Straits, but not a threat halfway around the world. Now if they have quiet Diesel/AIP subs of 3,000 ton or more displacement that carry ICBMs, that's another think altogether.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
The Nazis tried very hard to embargo shipping from North America to Great Britain, see The Battle of the Atlantic. They failed hard. The Japs didn't have enough subs to try on the Pacific side what the Nazis did, plus they had much greater distances to cover.

As a point of perspective on volume, the Allies suffered 3,675 ships sunk from 1939-1945. The Nazis lost 783 submarines, just in the Atlantic! The quantities of subs and surface vessels deployed by armed forces today are dwarfed by what was produced in WWII. China's supposed 300 subs are mostly littoral combat types, based on old Russian models. Fine for national defense or power projection in the Taiwan Straits, but not a threat halfway around the world. Now if they have quiet Diesel/AIP subs of 3,000 ton or more displacement that carry ICBMs, that's another think altogether.

Check out the PLAN's Type 032 submarine...Think AIP modernized Russian Golf SSB....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_032_submarine

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/nav...092-submarine-thread-185-3746.html#post298293

http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2014/06/chinese-type-032-qing-class-diesel.html

http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2013/11/chinese-type-032-diesel-electric.html

http://osimint.com/2013/08/02/chinas-plan-type-032-qing-class/

ETA: Also check out the articles regarding the North Koreans commissioning their own Golf SSB at the WoW threads and at least one stand alone thread on the Main.

The latest article.....

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...112062253?nk=cc77a69f4917a186eae1557950c8771e

North Korean submarine will carry nuclear missiles, say analysts

Richard Lloyd Parry
The Times
November 04, 2014 12:22PM

NORTH Korea is developing a submarine with the potential to launch nuclear-armed ballistic missiles, according to the South Korean government and US analysts.

The design of the new submarine, identified in commercial satellite photographs, is based on obsolete Soviet-era vessels bought by North Korea more than 20 years ago, and the vessel has some way to go before it will offer a direct threat.

However, it suggests the isolated dictatorship is in pursuit of a key component of nuclear deterrence known as second strike capability: the ability to withstand and retaliate against an all-out nuclear attack.

The submarine was analysed by researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. The images show both a previously unknown submarine of the type capable of firing ballistic missiles, and a testing area for the development of sea-based weapons.

Reports from South Korea suggest it will take at least one year of development and testing before the North is capable of firing ballistic missiles from the submarine, and longer still before it is able to miniaturise its small arsenal of nuclear warheads to mount them on such a missile. However, the idea that the North harbours such ambitions will itself cause concern.

“The development of submarines carrying ballistic missiles could provide North Korea with a survivable second-strike nuclear capability,” Joseph Bermudez, an expert on the North Korean military, wrote on the 38 North website operated by the university.

However, he added: “While the potential threat should not be ignored, it should also not be exaggerated. If the North decides to pursue such a capability, it is likely to take years to design, develop, manufacture, and deploy an operational submarine-launched ballistic missile force.”

The submarine and the ballistic missile test stand are in the Sinpo South shipyard on the east coast of North Korea.

Construction of the test stand began in September last year, the satellite photographs suggest.

The origins of the submarine illustrate both the lack of resources of the North Korean military, and the ingenious lengths to which it will go to achieve its ends. The Russian submarine on which it is based was one of a consignment of obsolete vessels that were stripped of their missiles and sold to North Korea for scrap in 1993.

According to Mr Bermudez, “examination of the Golf II-class submarine, which was originally equipped with three SS-N-5 Serb ballistic missiles, was very instructive since it reportedly retained significant elements of the missile launch system, including launch tubes and stabilisation sub systems”.

In the late 1980s, Pyongyang used Egyptian-bought Scud missiles as the basis for a weapon which it called the Rodong, and which it sold on to Iran, Libya and Syria.

North Korea has a continuing program of land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles that could eventually threaten the mainland United States.

The Times
 
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