[USA] Part 2: Activists calling for revolution, if Bush 'steals ' election

[skyko]

http://www.legitgov.org/mike_essay_rev_will_be_Webcast_072104.html


Activists calling for revolution, 'gaining control of the state'
threaten to 'shut the system down' if Bush 'steals'election.
July 21, 2004

Part 2:
The Ballot, The Bullet, and the Grand Refusal
"The Revolution Will Be Webcast!"
by Michael Rectenwald, CLG Founder and Chair



Now hear this: Any sign that the election has been stolen again, and we are calling for a complete walkout, civil disobedience, complete refusal and the shutting down of the system, per the Grand Refusal (see here or below this essay).

What are the TRIGGERS, what "election" events will trigger the Grand Refusal? The following list is by no means exhaustive. The Bush regime may very well alter their approach to stealing the election this time. But, this is a list that will guide us.

If any of these events occur in great number or even if one occurs to a significant, result-altering effect, we are calling for a complete WALKOUT! That means, do not go to work, do not shop beyond what you need to survive (food, beverages, medicine, etc.), do not pay credit card bills, do not participate in consumer events or sporting events, avoid all mass media and stay tuned to the WEB to stay posted for sites for mass demonstrations during the Grand Refusal. The Revolution will NOT be TELEVISED, the Revolution will be WEBCAST! If the web goes down, report to city hall in whatever city or town you reside! Until then, watch the web, the webring of revolution sites, for news and tactical issues. This webring is under construction, but will be in place for the "election." The CLG will be a revolutionary ringleader!

If the following or similar events take place and the election is stolen because of it, the Revolution, the Grand Refusal, must take place. If we do not do it, they have nothing to fear from us, ever again. Our rights will be gone. This is a very pivotal situation for our system of Government. One more coup and we are done for!

1) Reports of significant amounts voters in key precincts and states having been purged unduly from the voting rolls.

2) Reports of voter intimidation, poll closures, changed or moving polling places.

3) Reports of 'butterfly-ballot-like' spoilage of votes.

4) Reports of over-vote spoilage (as in Florida's mostly Democratic counties in 2000).

5) Evidence or signs of Diebold or other vote-counting machine manipulation, tampering, fixing, etc.

6) Serious discrepancies between pre-election and/or exit polling and "election" results favoring Bush.

7) Disruptions in voting due to brownouts or blackouts in key Democratic areas relying on electronic voting technology.

8) Sudden turnarounds in results in favor of the Dictator (such as took place for Florida in 2000 when Bush's cousin John Ellis at Faux reversed networks' consensus and overturned their predictions).

9) Reports and evidence of "bourgeois riots" or other means of intimidation to disrupt voting, or vote counting (as in Miami Dade in 2000).

10) "Terrorist" warnings and threat level increases in key races to either prevent voters from voting or to reduce turnout (a formula for Republican "victory) as warnings by Ridge and other administration officials presage.

11) Bioterrorism threats or attacks (the forced vaccines are not approved by FDA and behoove drug companies tied to Republicans--likewise, the threats or attacks will be in all probability manufactured with the intent to instill fear and support of status quo Republican 'war on [of] terror').

12) Judicial interventions to stop vote counting, stop voting, stop the real results from being registered, tabulated or COUNTED (as in the Supreme Court decision of 2000).

13) Cancellation or "postponement" of the election (in general or in part).

Any one or a combination of these and other events--resulting in a stolen, "postponed" or canceled election--will trigger the Revolution. By Revolution, we do not mean violence. We mean a TURNING OVER, a complete turning of the tables, a turnabout in terms of control. We go from ruled to rulers. We can show them how much they need us. Without us, they are nothing. "There is no king saved by the multitude of an host" (Psalms). The Real Revolution was against the people and the Constitution and took place in 2000 and continues to this day. The next Revolution must be a countercoup, and a recapturing, or a capturing for the first time, of our rights. How long will we stay out? As long as it takes to have a real election!!! or longer if we can and such a continued refusal brings even greater results...

All 9-11 activists please take note!!! All crimes of the former regime will be investigated upon gaining control of the state. Bush will be investigated and most likely tried for high crimes, including mass murders in the US and Iraq.

Stay tuned for more details and ideas. Most people who read this idea are for it. It is nonviolent, it is activist, it is workable. It worked in India for Gandhi and his followers, and it can work here. We have no other choice. Remember, as Bush himself said, "Fool me once, shame on...shame on me. Fool me...Won't Get Fooled again!"

Michael Rectenwald
July 21, 2004

Citizens For Legitimate Government
http://www.legitgov.org/

 

[WFK]

What if Kerry steals the election?
Any contingencies for that case?

 

[lars]

A moonbat revolution, sure to capture the popular imagination.

 

[HeliumAvid]

Who is John Titor?

 

[milkydoo]

All elections are stolen. It's called computerized vote counts. A revolution was justified nearly a century ago with the Federal Reserve Act. Are we really going to complain *now* if someone picks up a gun? Perhaps you only want a revolution when *you* are ready for one?

This is planet earth where the best and the brightest wage war for freedom at the drop of a hat. Don't bitch when others try the same method.

 

[D_el]

[Question] Who is John Titor?



[Answer] He's the soldier from 2036 that was on the train with John Galt


D_el

 

[Troke]

As these people do not personally know anybody who is going to vote for Dubya, it follows that if he wins, he must have stolen the election.

Simple, really.

So unless he wins in an incredible landslide, you will hear 'stolen' screams from everywhere.

 

[rhughe13]

"I'll be damned!" says Ted Kennedy as he take another shot of whiskey from the bottle.

 

[Safecastle]

I have to conclude that an eventual coup attempt by leftists is inevitable. And yes, it would be violent from the start. It's the only outcome possible when the core belief in these liberal "free thinkers" is that they are THE ONES who know what's best for everyone.

Fact is, the openly accepted wisdom in those circles now is that majorities in this land are an oppressive, bigoted (of course using the "mirror" tactic of casting one's own characteristic blame upon the opponent) ruling class who must be subdued and reformed. Since majorities rule in a democratic system, the "enlightened" must overcome them outside that system.

Having already hijacked education, mass media, and much of the justice system peaceably, and to still be outnumbered in the population at large leaves one significant "tip the balance" move to finally fragment the U.S. and its institutions into a smoldering wreckage. The logical next step is for those marxists to be able to incite an insurrection that they could twist and pin the blame for on the right. And we certainly know there are plenty of idiots out there willing and ready to jump on that exciting revolutionary wagon to adventure.

I don't know what the outcome of a violent uprising would/will be. Much depends on what the Marxist governments outside the US would do. But to suggest as this fool "of the people" does, that the proletariat can seize power peaceably, fits perfectly with the rest of the spiel that many gullible Americans have regularly swallowed whole from these same folks for years now.

I think the conflict is brewing. You don't need more than maybe 5% of the population to respond to a rallying cry like this in order for it to bring about huge repercussions. Unfortunately, we're ripe for it.

 

[piggyandpeewee]

Oh please...

Never in my life have I seen such a bunch of whiners and cry babies. Grow up girlie men and get over the 2000
Bush victory. Had the Democrats not STOLEN votes in other states (WI,NM et al) the Bush squeaker would have been in reality a solid win.

If these Communist-inspired and instructed insurrectionist sore losers are serious about trying to reverse the election result again (this time by Soviet methodism), the "Heartland of America will rise up against them and perhaps the prophecy of Dmitri Duduman will come to pass.

The people in the heartland states will rise up in revolution
against the "government" and in the ensuing confusion the rogue states (Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and Nicaragua) will strike America with everything they've got as instruments of the Lord's judgement. (Paraphrase)

 

[Troke]

the rogue states (Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Cuba and Nicaragua) will strike America with everything they've got as instruments of the Lord's judgement. (Paraphrase)

I assume you are using irony here.

If not, then would it be sinful to resist the 'instruments of the Lord's judgement'?

 

[milkydoo]

I have to conclude that an eventual coup attempt by leftists is inevitable. And yes, it would be violent from the start. It's the only outcome possible when the core belief in these liberal "free thinkers" is that they are THE ONES who know what's best for everyone.

Fact is, the openly accepted wisdom in those circles now is that majorities in this land are an oppressive, bigoted (of course using the "mirror" tactic of casting one's own characteristic blame upon the opponent) ruling class who must be subdued and reformed. Since majorities rule in a democratic system, the "enlightened" must overcome them outside that system.

Having already hijacked education, mass media, and much of the justice system peaceably, and to still be outnumbered in the population at large leaves one significant "tip the balance" move to finally fragment the U.S. and its institutions into a smoldering wreckage. The logical next step is for those marxists to be able to incite an insurrection that they could twist and pin the blame for on the right. And we certainly know there are plenty of idiots out there willing and ready to jump on that exciting revolutionary wagon to adventure.

I don't know what the outcome of a violent uprising would/will be. Much depends on what the Marxist governments outside the US would do. But to suggest as this fool "of the people" does, that the proletariat can seize power peaceably, fits perfectly with the rest of the spiel that many gullible Americans have regularly swallowed whole from these same folks for years now.

I think the conflict is brewing. You don't need more than maybe 5% of the population to respond to a rallying cry like this in order for it to bring about huge repercussions. Unfortunately, we're ripe for it.

How incredibly ironic it would be, if the radical left start the ball rolling that the right should have done a long time ago. The gun toting right is ready to take back their country at a moment's notice, but in the end, the Lazy Boy recliner and the status quo win out every time. Wouldn't it be ironic if the wimpy, whiny left *forced* the "Constitutionalist", gun toting right to take action?

Will the leftys demand a public hand count system for the vote, or just a faster Pentium chip to do the counting? Either way, it is the gun owners that have ultimately allowed the government to count the votes in secret. If they aren't securing their own votes by force, what do the NWO scum ever have to fear from them?

The above quoted post is a perfect example of why the government doesn't really fear our guns. After all the ballzy talk and posturing, the "right" wants nothing more than to continue bending over for the feds. When the opportunity comes to install a new, Constitutional government, the right will do nothing more than reanoint Bush and his tax and spend goons, maintaining the illusion of freedom.

Oh, and if the opportunity for a revolution comes, however it comes, and the gun toting right doesn't seize the hour to restore some order out of chaos, then we can all kiss our asses goodbye. If you let that opportunity pass, then I cannot forsee *any* future situation, short of an 19th century style collapse, where the gun owners would ever move to take back their country. That would be the Waco equivelant for all of the super patriots here. Will you fight, or fizzle?

Guns are worthless if the feds know you'll never use them.

 

[Safecastle]

Milkydoodoo: Most law-abiding folks with guns have their heads on straight. As a group, they have a far better grasp of reality than the liberal paper dolls in this country who are routinely manipulated by marxist disinformation.

You can bet that there will be many a gun owner who WILL rise to the occasion should the American system come under violent attack from within or without. That's the key ... America is all about individuals' rights, yet it is not at all about individual citizens or individual government officials. America is a way of life and a complex system that guarantees that way of life for all.

Your talk about revolution as well as the emotive this moronic communist puppet posted to the people to rise up are unabashedly political and personal in nature. Such extremist views are held by a very small minority in this country, but admittedly there are far too many whose lefty politics are being steered in that direction, so the gap IS closing between marxism and the liberal democratic party platform.

Go ahead, take the lead in your revolution, Milkdoodoo. There'll be a whole lot of people with guns right behind you ... and it won't be long for them to take you down.

 

[piggyandpeewee]

Troke, assuming I was being ironic about the rogue states being used as the Lord's

instruments of justice, I would also be referring to the folks who foment the rebellion, and anyone who understands their
Bible knows that those whom God uses to punish (teach) His
own people are themselves utterly destroyed in the end.

Long story short... Life is tough, but happy ending for the remnant.

 

[Troke]

have to conclude that an eventual coup attempt by leftists is inevitable

What for? They are gaining their goals everywhere. Even if Bush gets in, the Stupid Party will be too stupid to do anything much, without Ted Kennedy approving of it first. They figure three SCOTUS types will be appointed in the next four years. Wanna bet nobody who even leaned conservative when he was 16 (Was a member of the bigoted Boy Scouts or whatever) will get anywhere near it?

It is damned near nauseating.

 

[Safecastle]

have to conclude that an eventual coup attempt by leftists is inevitable

What for? They are gaining their goals everywhere. Even if Bush gets in, the Stupid Party will be too stupid to do anything much, without Ted Kennedy approving of it first. They figure three SCOTUS types will be appointed in the next four years. Wanna bet nobody who even leaned conservative when he was 16 (Was a member of the bigoted Boy Scouts or whatever) will get anywhere near it?

It is damned near nauseating.

Troke, I certainly share in your frustration.

One has to wonder where the line is, that once crossed, signals "no more" for the conservatives. As I see it, had the libs continued to patiently whittle away at the traditions and societal mores for say, another 20 years or so, they would have been able to achieve everything they want with a solid majority of the population behind them.

But for some reason, the folks driving the marxist movement seem to have judged that the time is now, and the various factions wearing the leftist colors (gays, animal righters, eco-freaks, abortionists, and Judeo-Christian haters to name a few) today are in take-no-prisoners mode. They have shifted their various increasingly aggressive campaigns into overdrive, and the cumulative desired effect seems to be to determine whether the conservatives will at some point defend themselves and stand fast or whether they can be intimidated and bullied all the way into the sea.

I take heart in seeing the emergence of a stalwart core of conservatives growing their voices as well as tapping into their anger to start to counter the leftist assaults. The American political arena is saturated with venom and hatred the likes of which have not been seen in my lifetime.

What we all know about emotion and anger in personal interaction also applies in the political and social realm. That is, things can unpredictably get out of control in a heartbeat. Religion and value systems are the things of which bloody wars are made. Even the soft middle of America retains the capacity to be pushed too far and to stand up and fight.

I believe we are seeing the left pushing hard and fast today with the ultimate goal of seeing where the threshold is. Why? I can only guess that they feel they are too close now to let it get away from them (and you CAN see that conservatives are slowly but solidly mobilizing their resources).

I'll repeat what I pointed out early in this thread that I think is crucial to understanding the risk of this intracultural confict flaring up in the near-term ... that it only takes a few people out of a hundred ... maybe only one out of a hundred to agree to attack and tear down America from within. And as others have pointed out, history shows that there aren't many more than that who would be willing to stand up and fight to repel the attackers. But if there was 2% of the population on each side of the battle willing to risk their lives for their beliefs and principles, then we would have a war involving 10 million combatants going at it on U.S. soil.

It all boils down to what it takes for the passions to be ignited on both sides. It's not far-fetched given history and the direction the leftists have taken in America recently, squarely targeting conservative religions.

 

[milkydoo]

Milkydoodoo: Most law-abiding folks with guns have their heads on straight. As a group, they have a far better grasp of reality than the liberal paper dolls in this country who are routinely manipulated by marxist disinformation.

'Better' doesn't pay the rent. Gun owners have stood by and allowed the left to do whatever they want over the last century. Perhaps the right has a 'better faith' in the corrupted system than the left?

You can bet that there will be many a gun owner who WILL rise to the occasion should the American system come under violent attack from within or without. That's the key ... America is all about individuals' rights, yet it is not at all about individual citizens or individual government officials. America is a way of life and a complex system that guarantees that way of life for all.

As usual, you 'right wing conservatives' continue to speak to everyone with a differing view as if they were liberal Democrats. This only serves to point out your own ignorance for all to see. America is about individuals' rights? So why has the right allowed them to be taken from us?

Go ahead, take the lead in your revolution, Milkdoodoo. There'll be a whole lot of people with guns right behind you ... and it won't be long for them to take you down.

I'm not on the left, moron. I hate to break this to you pal, but conservative 3rd partys make Bush look like a f*cking communist. You insist on playing this idiotic 2 party game. There's nothing intelligent about it. You tell me where and when the Founders would have fired up another revolution. At what point during the last century would they have said 'enough was enough'? Then compare that with your panzy ass, status quo, 'faith in the machine' position.

Yes, you would fire on the left, wouldn't you? But you would never dare fire on your own government. I bet you've got one of those vibrating recliners.....real comfy, eh?

 

[Kimber]

Milkydoo,

Shame on you. Don't you understand by now that anyone opposed to the current system and in favor of the system intended by our Founding Fathers is labelled here as a leftist? And don't bother asking them about Liberty, the true notion of it escapes them and you'll just be labelled a pinko.

Most people don't even understand that more freedom currently exists in Russia than here. (It's not perfect in Russia, by any means, but a 13% flat tax ain't bad compared to the "free" quasi-Republic we currently have.) I thought this was a forum for self-reliant individuals and not a forum for slaves of the welfare state.

IMHO, the "conservatives" in this country are just that. "No change, but if it happens, oh well, still no further change. No democrat because the change would be too fast, we'll vote republican. Another change? Hey, this time we really mean it! What's that? You want a return to the old ways? You must be a leftist. Remember, we still want no change. And, we have guns - at least until we don't!"

No, it is going to take heating up the temperature in the pot quite quickly to get the frogs to jump out. Most "conservatives" will have to be broken down like a plough horse under the yoke of a true "liberal" or "conservative" regime until they want a better life for themself and their kids. I'm personally voting my conscience - Ron Paul, Libertarian Party or Constitution Party - I'm still undecided on these three. I would also not mind if Kerry wins, as the conversion of "conservatives" to reactionary revolutionaries would only happen faster.

Fortunately, and yes, fortunately for the future of our Republic, I think we have a true economic crash coming that may precipitate a return to true self-reliance and a realization by many that the present system won't cut it. Messy, yes. And "I may not make it to the promised land." But, it's coming. Picture a bankrupt United State government under attack on all sides.

On the border issue alone, these "conservatives" should be voting for a party other than the democrats or republicans. Yet, they don't and won't. They can't yet bring themselves to want a change for the better.

P.S. Before you "conservatives" get your panties in a bunch, would you have been Tories during the American Revolution? Why or why not? That is the key question we should be addressing. Not, a bunch of whining kids, who could likely be brought over to the cause of Liberty once they realize they are going to have to pay for a bankrupt welfare program and get none of the benefits. Self-interest is still the best motivator.

And my favorite one-liner of all time, from Patrick Henry and which I use quite frequently: "If this be treason, make the most of it!"

David

[Edited, as always, for typos unless otherwise noted.]

 

[milkydoo]

Hi Kimber. We definitely think alike. I also believe that it will take a crash to turn us around, but I think even then we'd have only a slim chance. I have a vision of Latinos and Chinese invading us in such numbers that the old American dream just melts away.

We are still the land of plenty and that makes us party central. Even putting troops on the borders now probably wouldn't save us, but it still must be done for us to even have a shot.

It's amazing to see so many "conservatives" praising a system that is killing us all, bit by bit. No effort is made to turn us around, only to continue the madness. I can almost hear their two marbles rattling around in their brains: "We need change!", "But we CAN'T, it'll HURT!", "Oh no! Need change, but change hurt, so no change. " A sad state of affairs.

 

[Safecastle]

Milky do and Kimber -- you guys ought to climb out of your foxholes every once in a while and get a whiff of reality. Surely, you must have to do that every once in a while to renew your subscriptions to Cosmic Mercenaries Illustrated???

So all the talk and anger boils down to the loss of liberties. The oppressive weight of being an American under the yoke of slavery to the state, and all that crapola. (That "there are more freedoms in Russia today than in America"??? ... doesn't that say a lot about who you are deep down?)

I'll be happy to read how exactly your lives have been ruined and what liberties you are pining for that you do not have now. Tell a good, detailed story about shattered dreams and painful tortures and I might be able to give you and your views some consideration, or at least some sympathy.

If not, well ...

Get a job. Get religion. Get real.

 

[Kimber]

JC,

I have a job and a religion. Please try clearly stating your position if you would like an honest response. Or, ask an honest question and I will clearly tell you my view.

As for your last comment, it is enough for me that I'm paying an effective marginal tax of at least 54% (including paying both sides of social security). I'm also being forced to pay into currently bankrupt government programs that will not exist in 10 years.

More generally, doctors already reporting medicial information to the government. Governments can seize your home or car if a $100 bill has the scent of cocaine on it and is in your possession. No knock warrentless raids, in which an innocent man is shot and killed in bed while reaching for a beer. All this from just the last week or two.

We have over 6 million people in prison, most because of non-violent crimes relating to drugs. I'm not a drug user, but I should have the right to smoke one if I wanted, just like I shouldn't have to wear a motorcycle helmet or a seatbelt. And no, I don't want a handout from the government or a program if I'm injured. The entitlement mentality of this country has gotten out of control.

The fear of actually telling you how I truly feel because of the Patriot Act, by itself, is enough reason for me.

I'm sure many Germans were happy with their lives in pre-1939 Germany.

Just wait. Within 5-10 years, you will be wondering when happy days will be here again. The entire economic and political system you love so much will be crashing under it's own weight. And absolutely nothing can save it.

So, you can go about your merry business. Remember, fundamentally the American Revolution was fought because of economic considerations. We're just going to have to wait until the next set of Intolerable Acts comes along.

And I have no anger towards the system, government flunkies act out of self-interest the same as we all do. My anger is reserved for people who knowingly lie about my positions on something or are so ignorant that they are reckless in their statements.

[Edited to add: You know, if I'm wrong about the future of this country, then I'll have a very fat, dumb and comfortable life. I just severely doubt that will be the case.]

David

 

[Safecastle]

Kimber, one thing we seemingly agree on ... that the entitlement culture that has sprung up in America is BAD NEWS.

But now, correct me if I'm wrong ... I boil down the story about your personal aversion to the U.S. government to two things:

1. Your tax burden (which might be a valid reason for self-pity IF you were not using ANY of the services your taxes support ... i.e., roads, emergency services, a military force that protects your way of life, and of course on and on and on and on). You also mention that the systems you're supporting won't be there in 10 years (for you to draw upon?). So money is a big factor, yes?

2. Liberties you think might be nice to have but the reputed loss of which haven't really affected you personally or significantly yet. And I might add, of those that you do mention, my view is that some are the fear-mongering "what-ifs" inflated and promulgated on the Internet.

Assuming that summary is not too far off base, first, I'd like to point out that there is not only the money-grubbing element inherent in the entitlement mindset, but other forms of demanding what is "due" a person. I'll just let you chew on that a bit.

Second, even if I too saw things your way as I interpret them here, it seems it would be a big stretch to judge that as justification for plotting to or supporting the overthrow of the American government and the way of life it has blessed me with. There would have to be other major factors involved in my thinking before I could be swayed to believe that such a thing could be a positive development for the future of the country and for my children's prospects. What else could it be that would cause me to romanticize and espouse a coup in America due to the electoral system working as designed? Surely, there must be something else.

I have to say, in the simplest of terms, that anyone who thinks a fairytale outcome is in the cards for a modern post-revolution in America, they ought to think through it again in greater detail. The ONLY force that will fill the ear-popping vacuum of a world minus the American government is marxism. Those marxist forces continue to work actively toward that ambition and there is no other presence out there that stands a chance of preventing it should the US be neutered.

Finally, a disturbing quote and opportunity for clarification? ...
"Most people don't even understand that more freedom currently exists in Russia than here. (It's not perfect in Russia, by any means, but a 13% flat tax ain't bad compared to the "free" quasi-Republic we currently have.)" So in saying this, are you representing what a typical Libertarian feels? If so, my view of Libertarianism has taken a major hit.

 

[Kimber]

JC,

I'll have to respond later in more detail, as I've got a project due later today.

First, no. Rest assured, I'm neither plotting or planning any type of revolution. I value my life too much and I am no fool. However, I think one is inevitable and this would give rise to fitting counter revolution. When something does trigger this, I intend to be on the right side of freedom and history - even if it's a lost cause.

As for taxes, I view them as no more than slavery. Serfs only had to pay about 1/3 of their "income." There is something quite different between a true "common good" like roads for all or defense for all, and legalized theft of my money to buy the vote of someone else. Why are food stamps often said to be for the "common good". They are not, as they only benefit one segment of society. Look at the enermerated powers given to the federal government. That's about right in my view - before the New Deal courts gave in to FDR pressure. I'll use a Walter Williams line, paraphrased, if you're a woman in a room with 4 other people and the vote is 3-2 to rape you, is it right?

I'll go into government power later. And yes, I am incredibly pessimistic. As I said, if I'm wrong, I'll be in nice house, married and trying to raise a family in 15 years. I don't think this will happen.

David

 

[Troke]

Food stamps were the sequel to the "Kennedy Supermarket" as it was known.

Agricultural surpluses, purchased by the gov to support farm prices were given away to the poor folks starting about 1962. Which made the farmers happy because now the money used for storage could be used to buy more 'surplus' crops..

That turned out to be cumbersome, so they segued into food stamps, still making the farmers happy. And the poor folks too.

 

[bigwavedave]

First, no. Rest assured, I'm neither plotting or planning any type of revolution. I value my life too much and I am no fool. However, I think one is inevitable and this would give rise to fitting counter revolution. When something does trigger this, I intend to be on the right side of freedom and history - even if it's a lost cause.

sort of like paul milne. complaining about taxes, recommending a revolution that somebody else ought to start.

 

[Kimber]

Bigwave,

No, I am also not asking anyone else to take up arms in any cause. Granted, my "fantasy world" would be one in which we could turn back time. It'll never happen.

These thread arguments typically start because someone who is a libertarian vents frustration toward Republican policy. Then, he or she is slammed as a pinko member of the Left. IMHO - both the republicans and democrats are solicialists. It's only a matter of degree.

That puts me a bit of a political quandry, because I despise the philosphy of both sides. The only political philosophy I have found thus far with which I can agree is the philosophy of revolutionary patriots, like Henry, Sam Adams and Thomas Jefferson. So yes, I am a "revolutionary" in the sense it best reflects my beliefs. No, I am not a member of the Left.

Again, no, I don't want to run off into the woods, join a militia or serve in a cause. I am also strongly recommending that no else do this either! If some misguided soul does, he's on his own.

I do believe there will one day come a time when such action may well be necessary, but we are still quite aways away. And I would never ask someone to do something I would not do myself. Since I won't, I ask no else to do so. However, since I'm voting 3rd party, I think I have the right to recommend that others do the same - even if they disagree.

Let me put it another way, I believe that nothing short of a revolution will fix the mess we are in. Does that statement work for you, or would you disagree?

[Edited for typos and to add: I do grant that revolutions can be non-violent. It happens, but is generally quite rare.]

[Edited again to add: And I confess to never having heard of Paul Milne nor have I read any of his work. I will withhold comment on this point until I learn more about him (should I ever desire to do so). I suspect, however, based on the tone of your post that it was a slam and that I would be against Mr. Milne's point of view as well.]

P.S. Never try to post while on a phone call - typos are a real problem. More so than usual.

[Edited one last time hopefully to attach the following chart. This is not an Econ. SIG, but this is the reason I feel we are living on borrowed time - pun intended.]

 

[milkydoo]

1. Your tax burden (which might be a valid reason for self-pity IF you were not using ANY of the services your taxes support ... i.e., roads, emergency services, a military force that protects your way of life, and of course on and on and on and on). You also mention that the systems you're supporting won't be there in 10 years (for you to draw upon?). So money is a big factor, yes?

What kind of fantasy land are you in? Are you actually one of those Republicans (do I even have that right?) that enjoys paying ever increasing taxes and never seeing anything for it? JC, most people wouldn't mind paying some taxes if they could actually see the money at work. One obvious problem is federal taxation and filtration of the money through the bureaucracy which is a horribly inefficent system. And if taxes are there to fix roads, then why aren't they ever fixed? Taxes too low, as usual?

2. Liberties you think might be nice to have but the reputed loss of which haven't really affected you personally or significantly yet. And I might add, of those that you do mention, my view is that some are the fear-mongering "what-ifs" inflated and promulgated on the Internet.

Let's see, is this more of the same eternal optimism from the right wing? "Let's all smile real big as we go down the shitter!" It's not a problem until it happens to you, huh? What will you say years down the road when Bush's new laws are abused by both parties? Are you going to vote the bad guys out then, or always find some 3rd rate nation to compare us to and keep smiling?

Second, even if I too saw things your way as I interpret them here, it seems it would be a big stretch to judge that as justification for plotting to or supporting the overthrow of the American government and the way of life it has blessed me with.

Whoa! Is that a typo? I don't want to misinterpret that statement. The American government has blessed you? We don't need the government's blessing to prosper. We need them to get the hell out of the way, and agencies like the IRS aren't in the business of "blessing" people. That's the kind of statement I might expect from someone on the left, someone who _needs_ the government's help to make it and who believes that it is government that is responsible for the good in their life. That is an incredibly dangerous viewpoint. At this point, I'll assume that was just poor wording.

There would have to be other major factors involved in my thinking before I could be swayed to believe that such a thing could be a positive development for the future of the country and for my children's prospects. What else could it be that would cause me to romanticize and espouse a coup in America due to the electoral system working as designed? Surely, there must be something else.

I thought we had broadened the subject beyond the lefty radicals in the article. I'm talking about *everything* that has gone wrong and what real world solutions there might be.

Whenever this and similar subjects come up, I have to wonder what side the modern day conservative would have been on during the Revolutionary War. With our country having slid so far down the gutter, and "conservatives" continuing to support reform within an obviously corrupted system, I have a difficult time believing that any of the neocons would have fought along side the Founders.

If you are unable to draw a line in the sand when it comes to government corruption and loss of freedoms today, then how can you possibly understand why our Founders fought the King? If you cannot draw a line in the sand, then how will you ever really know when they have gone too far?

It seems the neocons are just as caught up in the high life as the leftys. Nobody wants to give up DVD night. As long as our leaders don't push too far, too fast, then it's "ok" with you. So long as you have a job, a car and a school for your kids, then we must be doing alright, and we can always compare ourselves to other nations even though we are becoming more like them every day.

I have to say, in the simplest of terms, that anyone who thinks a fairytale outcome is in the cards for a modern post-revolution in America, they ought to think through it again in greater detail. The ONLY force that will fill the ear-popping vacuum of a world minus the American government is marxism. Those marxist forces continue to work actively toward that ambition and there is no other presence out there that stands a chance of preventing it should the US be neutered.

As many have opined, the best scenario would be a split into several smaller nations. I agree that a new government at the head of the 50 states would only be worse, but I can't imagine any revolutionary being interested in preserving the union. We must split up.

-----------

I'm no revolutionary. I'm just an addicted schmuck like everyone else, but I'm also smart enough to see that change can no longer be affected via the voting system. Sure, I want to see things continue to grind along too, because I don't want to get shot, or go hungry, or lose everything. But the obvious item that the "educated" partisans miss, is that we are trapped in the same old, time tested vicious cycle that has destroyed zilliions before us.

The cycle is never easy to break, but the longer you wait, the harder it gets, and more will suffer and die......suffer as a direct result of their grandparent's unwillingness to get their hands dirty in order to provide a better future for them. So, we live it up now, and *your* children will pay the price for it later.

As the old saying made clear, when they come for you and *your* freedoms, no one will hear your cries, for you ignored their pleas for help as well.

So, what's the plan? Yep. Keep on, keepin' on, 'cause that's just the way it's done. When a war is finally fought, and won, for real freedom, somewhere on the planet, the freedom fighters will teach the history to their young, and admonish those before them who allowed the corruption to escalate, but decades and centuries down the road, their children will forget again, and repeat the same old mistakes that we're repeating now.

Guns freed our forefathers. It may be 'too late' now, but it's still the only way. The status quo is just comfortable slavery.

 

[Kimber]

JC,

I got sidetracked last night on some other threads and spending quality time at home. So, I'm just going to steal from someone else for now. It more or less sums up my view on the "it doesn't affect me - why worry" argument. Please don't even ask me about where this guy is coming from, I just agree with this article. And yes, I too think the war on drugs is stupid and destroys our Liberty. I'm not a user of illegal drugs, and never have been. (I do drink and use Copenhagen, however. And I'm trying to quit the latter):


IT DOESN'T AFFECT US
http://www.angelfire.com/co2/RayThomas/affect.html
Copyright © 2000 By Ray Thomas

There is a famous quote we see often about the whole idea of ignoring the excesses of government until it affects us personally. It goes like this:

"In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak for me." (Rev. Martin Neimoeller, German Lutheran Pastor. Rev. Neimoeller was arrested by the Gestapo for opposing Hitler and was sent to Dachau in 1938. He was freed by Allied forces in 1945.)

Now some people will say this is "trite." But it is one of those quotes that speaks volumes more than it was meant to speak when originally said because it so neatly applies to every case where the people ignored what the government was doing until it DID affect them. By then it was too late because there was no one left to speak for them. This is what is happening in this country now as we sit back and cheer the "alphabet soup agencies" as they rape citizens unconstitutionally in the name of the government's insane "drug war."

We have allowed them to make rules that allow them to stop us on the street (or in our cars), search us without a warrant, and "confiscate" (steal) any large amounts of money we may have (or take any other property including real estate they may want to steal) by simply saying "It must be drug money."

It "must be" drug money. Not "is." "must be." This is how law enforcement is conducted today. They take what they want and force us to "prove a negative," our innocence, in order to get it back, after posting a bond to assure that WE will pay THEIR legal expenses BEFORE we can sue for its return.

Lawyer Nancy Johnson said in a recent "Sierra Times" article: "The ugly precedent here is that like the IRS, OSHA, BLM and the FDIC, the ATF has joined the ranks of alphabet soup agencies who engage in rule-making by fiat. Meaning: no notice; no comment, just that anything they deem illegal...is. Even if it was legal when you bought it. Nice weapon to use in the anti-gun war when you can't get a bill past the House of Representatives."

They're using the "subjective" ("open-ended") laws they've passed specifically to make laws such that they may be "defined" by those "enforcing" them. That way, a policeman or government agent can "define" what you may be doing legally as a crime, at his/her discretion and "put you away" for it.

Ayn Rand best described this process for enslaving people: "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one "makes" them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted --- and you create a nation of law-breakers --- and then you cash in on the guilt." (Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged")

Think about it. Look at all the conflicting "laws" and "regulations" that have been passed and promulgated. In many cases when you obey one, you violate several others and they can "get you" any time they wish. They are in the process of "criminalizing" everybody in this country in some way so they can at will come to them and say: "You will do as I say or I'll put you away for a long time."

This is one of the most basic scams used by the power seekers today to continue our enslavement. Even better than "chattel slavery" is "political slavery," where you are "the property of the government" and must do its bidding. That is the enslavement they wish for us, with them being the masters. Make no mistake about it. That is the goal of the power seekers: that we work to benefit them, not ourselves. If we don't start doing something to turn this back, it won't be long before we are all "vassals" to "King Government.

If you ignore what they're doing until it affects you personally, you'll be like Rev. Neimoeller, who spent seven years in a concentration camp since he ignored what they were doing to others "because it didn't concern him." So when they "came for him," there was no one left to speak for him. Don't let that happen to you.

 

[Safecastle]

Milkydoo--Looking at your profile and what comes to mind from your history of posting, it's clear that you are not anyone I can take seriously. Rant and hypothesize away--maybe someday you'll hit paydirt and start a sensational new Internet rumor that spreads like wildfire before finally petering out like they all do eventually. What glory that would be, huh?

Your love of conspiracy theories, your relative youthful inexperience in the world at large, and your unwillingness to consider the wisdom and production of the "zillions" who have gone before you disqualify you from taking up any more of my time.

By the way, I never said I was a Republican ... and I have actually voted Repuiblican only a few times in my life.


Kimber--from the post of "It doesn't affect us," I assume you're going to be able to follow up with some worthy examples of how you've been active in your community or out in the world or in some kind of government service effort to correct the mistakes of those who have ruined the world? The article IS about taking action, isn't it?

Those who talk, talk. And EVERYONE is qualified and free to do so in America. But to do the walk is when most quiet down. You've said as much about yourself in this thread.

FWIW, I've invested years of my life in public and governmental service, including some time that I feel was in some pretty significant roles for purposes of protecting the United States from real (not imagined) threats. Moreover, I'm proud to say I raised my oldest son to be someone who is not afraid to step forward to do what's right and live up to his understanding of the word "duty." He did so and came back a from Iraq recently a disabled vet. And he has not waivered in his understanding of what the world is really about. I'll be equally proud to see my two younger sons also grow up to be fully responsible American citizens and soldiers if need be.

Bottom line on the US government is ... there's always room for improvement. So make it happen. But if you don't have the patience to work within the system and think armed revolution is the answer, you don't and won't have many friends. Unless you count your comrades in Moscow and Beijing.

 

[Kimber]

"Unless you count your comrades in Moscow and Beijing."

I see that I was mistaken about discussing this topic with you. I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

David

[Edited to add: I do not mean to come off sounding crass, but it appears you are not open to discussing the topic honestly - so both of us are only wasting our time discussing it.]

 

[Troke]

As many have opined, the best scenario would be a split into several smaller nations. I agree that a new government at the head of the 50 states would only be worse, but I can't imagine any revolutionary being interested in preserving the union. We must split up.

I love it! It is the purest form of the goals of the Cultural Left. Why do you suppose they are all hot for 'multi-diversity'? They want this culture split up with each group at each other's throats.

Continous civil conflict with the destruction of Americanism and the elimination of the American culture on the world scene would be nirvana for them. They have worked towards it for generations and the goal is almost in sight.

Why do you suppose what is termed 'partisanship' is getting more and more savage? It is just the first symptom.

And to think we got people on this forum who favor that. Stealth faculty from the Ivy League perhaps?

Lovely.

 

[CygnusXI]

JC and Troke are right on.

2000 was the "trail balloon" for the lefts agenda of so called civil war.
I have no doubts that one is coming, although as Dennis Prager says, we are already in one (just not a violent one.. yet).

This election IMO will be squeaky close.

Crys, lies and underhanded trys will be the clarion call of the left during this Nov. election. And just as in 2000, roughly half of the sheep...uh.. I mean people will buy into it.

Civil war this year?
Possible.
I say bring it. I'm sick of bleeding to death.

Multi-culturalism at it's very core, and as it's very name implies, is the BEST tool for destroying a nations identity. A nation IS it's culture and American Culture does exist-- but is fading quick.

Divide and conquer.
It's working well, and the band plays on.

 

[Kimber]

Troke,

I can't speak for anyone else, but does this sound like the goals of the Cultured Left:

1. Deport all illegal aliens - remember Operation Wetback?

2. English only for all governmental purposes, including votiing.

3. Seal the borders.

4. Redefine a U.S. citizen as someone born to a U.S. citizen or someone who has been naturalized.

5. A test similar to the citizenship exam in order to vote. (People who fail may take it multiple times until they learn it.)

6. Return control to the states, except for the constitutionally enumerated powers.

7. No federal welfare state.

8. Senators appointed by the state legislatures, as it used to be.

And them's just for starters. That is where I'm coming from - just so there is no misunderstanding. Of course it won't happen - that's why I'm such a pessimist.

Once this is done, we will have 50 semi-autonomous governments for most matters. I don't see a problem. It's how this country was founded. Freedom is better assured because if you don't like Michigan law, you can always move to Virginia. If one state has a flaky workers compensation system, like California, businesses can move to Florida. As long as you have a one-size-fits-all federal regime on anything, there's nowhere to run.

And it was only because of Lincoln and the War Between the States that today's view of the Republic took hold. Before the war, it was "the United States are" after the war, "the United States is". I prefer the former, except on matters of national defense.

David

 

[Troke]

The Cultural Left might be willing to trade for all that if they could only break this country up into squabbling fragments.

They don't really give a damn about any of that liberal stuff other than its use to destroy the culture.

And it is working.

 

[milkydoo]

Milkydoo--Looking at your profile and what comes to mind from your history of posting, it's clear that you are not anyone I can take seriously. Rant and hypothesize away--maybe someday you'll hit paydirt and start a sensational new Internet rumor that spreads like wildfire before finally petering out like they all do eventually. What glory that would be, huh?

Yeah, man, cool noodles! Rock on, dude! Whoohoo!

Your love of conspiracy theories, your relative youthful inexperience in the world at large, and your unwillingness to consider the wisdom and production of the "zillions" who have gone before you disqualify you from taking up any more of my time.

Your ignorance is showing again. What part of your own American history are you not understanding? Perhaps you think the Founders just waved their magic wand and aquired the freedoms that YOU enjoy today? Exactly what credit do you give them?

I've been around the block more than you'll ever know. I have not spent my youth in the bottle like most kiddies, and even most "educated" folks. I understand that this country cannot withstand another 50 years of pathetic excuses from the right anymore than it can withstand the evil on the left.

I'm happy to see that you wake up every day with a continued and renewed faith in the system. It's good to know that you'll defend your DVD player with lethal force if necessary, so I'm sure it will comfort you to know that the feds will never take it from you. Your faith in the system and the two party ping pong game you play every day is what they want. It keeps you powerless.

We're not going to turn this country around with millions of faxes to D.C. and computer counted votes. You fail to recognize the root problems. You blame the "left", but what has the right done to turn us around? What solution can be realisticly implemented from within the system? None.

You don't like conspiracy theories? Then conspiracies is all you will ever have.....not that you will ever know it, or even care if there was one (unless it was a lefty job, of course).

Yes, my youthful nonsense has poisoned your textbook brand of widsom. You blindly trust your government to turn things around, and I do not. I wonder which one of us has a similar attitude to that of our Founding Terrorists?

It's such a shame that so many "educated" people take full advantage of the freedoms that were given to them, not by Bush and Company, but by our forefathers, but absolutely refuse to acknowledge and *understand* what it took to aquire those freedoms. They didn't vote them in! They killed for it, and sooner or later, we will have to as well, but at least it is clear now that you will be fighting for the King and his Cronies, rather than real freedom.

Perhaps one day, you will reattain the 'wisdom of youth'....or, 'wisdom of the Founders', if you prefer. Some understand when it is too late and has gone too far, and others do not. Keep your faith in the system, JC, for that is all you really have.

 

[milkydoo]

As many have opined, the best scenario would be a split into several smaller nations. I agree that a new government at the head of the 50 states would only be worse, but I can't imagine any revolutionary being interested in preserving the union. We must split up.

I love it! It is the purest form of the goals of the Cultural Left. Why do you suppose they are all hot for 'multi-diversity'? They want this culture split up with each group at each other's throats.

Continous civil conflict with the destruction of Americanism and the elimination of the American culture on the world scene would be nirvana for them. They have worked towards it for generations and the goal is almost in sight.

Why do you suppose what is termed 'partisanship' is getting more and more savage? It is just the first symptom.

And to think we got people on this forum who favor that. Stealth faculty from the Ivy League perhaps?

Lovely.

War is peace
Slavery is freedom
Blind faith is patriotism

and...

Secession is anti-American

Are you anti-secession or do you just believe it is not the answer at this time? That is what I'm talking about. Secession. I support the peoples' right to fight for freedom, anywhere on the planet. Perhaps those so in love with government should focus on governing their own lives for a change, whether they be leftys or rightys.

Hypothetical scenario: State XXX seceeds from the union. A war ensues. Which side are you on? Freedom, or government? If there are "corrupt" revolutionaries, then it is the peoples' duty to weed them out as well. Sometimes the war for freedom is waged on many fronts.

Can we survive the illegal invasion? No. Can we survive the NWO? No. Can we survive secession? Probably not....maybe...don't know....need a crystal ball, but I think it is our best shot.

Nothing in our current system is actively working to restore our freedoms and secure our homeland. Nothing. Are thinking minds really expected to keep the faith in a suicide machine? We can't blame the latinos for wanting to come here, so why would we blame the people for wanting to seceed and govern themselves for the first time in a century?

I'm going to pop in a DVD. How 'bout you?

 

[Bearded Weirdo]

People actually believe the the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party are true conservatives?

 

[milkydoo]

People actually believe the the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party are true conservatives?

So what's a "true conservative", and some example partys if you would please? And do tell if you agree with everything they preach, because I don't agree with everything in the two that you listed. There is no perfect party.

First, we have to move in a general direction, then we can squable over the details. Chop the tree down at its' base and we'll worry about how to mulch it later.

 

[Safecastle]

All righty ... finally got around to checking out this site where the article originates ... a place they call: Citizens for Legitimate Government. Hmmm ...

Didn't have to look far. The group's founder and leader and the principal author of this thread's original article is named Michael Rectenwald. Here's another of his archived articles there where he plainly states they are marxist and they are not at all about peaceful revolution (but revolution, yes indeed)...

http://legitgov.org/mike_essay_leftist_power_the_60s_and_theory_101503.html

<TABLE id=content cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="60%" border=0><TBODY><TR height=1071><TD height=2><!--start of content-->

​

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Leftist Power, the 60s, and Theory --by Michael Rectenwald[/font]
​

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
When Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci applied the word hegemony to describe how political ideologies struggled to achieve dominance, he was referring to a battle, a war, a struggle for dominance by and for disparate and very distinct ideologies--for either a socialist or a bourgeois ideology. There is a difference between a leftist and a rightwing hegemony, and of course, there are philosophical and tactical differences between the two, based on their opposing views of just about everything--from democracy, to egalitarianism, to property and the working people. The left is radically egalitarian and democratic. The left is for radical diversity, culturally and otherwise. The right is for unmitigated expression of dominance by the few. The right does not apologize for its belief in the supposed superiority of its 'ubermenschen.' In fact, Nietzsche, as the epitome of Romantic individualism, is the perfect philosophical analogue of capitalist hegemony. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The right is struggling for dominance over all, over the majority. But the right is in a war for dominance against the left. We must not confuse the two struggles; the right struggles to maintain its ideology of dominance AS dominance. The left struggles to have its egalitarian, democratic, and ideals of diversity dominate. To misunderstand this, and to assume that the left is some laissez faire, peace-lover ideology at any expense, is to misunderstand political struggle, as well as the leftist traditions. If you are not here to have the leftist ideology of egalitarian and radical democracy DOMINATE society, you are in the wrong place. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is an attendant assumption on the part of some liberals, that taking power and using power is just not part and parcel of our program, that there is something intrinsically wrong with power itself, and that the point is not that we should have it, but that no one should. This is a misunderstanding that, in the US, has its roots in 60s peacenik activism, in some form of Gandhi-like resistance applied dogmatically and without consideration of the particular historical and political circumstances at play. This position has no real lineage in the leftist tradition. The fact of the matter is that the left IS (or should be) struggling for hegemony, and that means a struggle for power. If we don't take it, we will never have it, and the right wing will. It cannot be so messy that we cannot define our goals, that we haven't the nerve to take action towards them, and that we will fight for them. Further, there is the additional hangover from the sixties that eschews all use weapons other than words. Yeah, tell that to the Bolsheviks. Or, if you don't like Marxist revolution, tell that to the sansculottes and other French revolutionaries. Or, if you don't like them, tell that to the American Revolutionaries. If you don't like them, you are definitely in the wrong place. To rule out all but "peaceful" actions in advance is both dogmatic and ridiculously naive. Every revolution had a revolutionary army, and/or co-opted the state militia. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Our philosophy is not the more "human" one. "Humanity" is a rather abstract term, and it's always an historically-contingent category. One culture's "humanity" is another's barbarism, as one age's humanity is another age's barbarism. The danger with using such words is that it gives us an abstract feel-good sense and one that often leads us away from establishing really concrete values for what we mean by being 'human.' One might just as well by-pass that kind of language completely and talk about being democratic, egalitarian, socialistic or otherwise humanistic in the sense that human values come before any religious ones--which is better described as "secular."[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Finally, for those who think that any theory is an extra appendage, a waste of time, or some mere intellectual exercise for "elitists," I leave you with the words of Lenin. Regardless of whether you advocate or agree with HIS form of theory, his comments about theory in general, are quite apt. Further, he was a 'successful' revolutionary. Regardless of whether or not you like the revolution resulting, his ideas resulted in revolution.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement. This idea cannot be insisted upon too strongly at a time when the fashionable preaching of opportunism goes hand in hand with the an infatuation for the narrowest forms of practical activity [as is exactly the case today. It is fashionable to preach the same kinds of things, to make ourselves 'feel good' about being the 'humanity' party, and to leave our activism at a nascent stage of mere fantasy without real action or courage]. Yet, for Russian Social-Democrats [or US social democrats] the importance of theory is enhanced by three other circumstances, which are often forgotten: first, by the fact that our Party [or action group] is only in the process of formation, its features are only just becoming defined [we are not even at this point], and it has as yet far from settled accounts with other trends of revolutionary thought that threaten to divert the movement from the correct path." [/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][I argue that these trends for us are a lack of vision regarding the actual need for RADICAL, to the root, change and a tepid sense about what is to be done, and a dogmatic 'peacenik' attitude that has nothing to do with revolution, ever].
[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Michael D. Rectenwald, CLG Founder[/font]
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]October 15, 2003[/font]

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[gonefishin]

oh boy, ha, I saw this coming....are they truly serious?

a revolt!

I say this because I was thinking it the other day...what will happen if we have a re-run of the last election

purging voters from the rolls and what not.

thanks for posting this skyko!