PLAY Where Angels Fear to Tread: Discussion with a Facebook friend

[SarahLynn]

So I'm in this Facebook discussion about the Gabby Giffords shooting and the Tea Party with a friend of my cousin...I never should have rushed in where angels fear to tread but I did.

So first this young man (I think he's in his early 20's) posts a screen shot of an ad on Jesse Kelly's web site inviting people to a target practice and claims that this was somehow responsible for Loughner attempting to assassinate Ms Giffords. Jesse Kelly as you may be aware ran against Gabby Giffords and lost in this last election.

I just couldn't stand by and allow such idiocy to pass, so I said that there was no proof Loughner had ever even read that ad.

Then when I proved to him that Loughner is a LEFTIST/ATHEIST, the tune suddenly changed and I get from him that "politics doesn't matter...the climate of hate created by the Tea Party and Sarah Palin is what matters."

He posts this typical Leftist drivel from Paul Krugman today (NY Times and George Packer (New Yorker), blaming conservatives for all the hate speech and by implication, all violence.

I show him Michelle Malkin's web site with all the horrific examples of violence being promoted against Palin, Henry Hyde, Bush, and much, much more.

He comes back with "conservatives have engaged in far, far worse." He claims he could cite far, far more examples of conservative hate than liberal hate.

I've answered that he's illogical and inconsistent for stating that Loughner's politics doesn't matter, because we know that Loughner was heavily influenced by LEFTIST screeds like Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto, yet somehow Loughner is acting on the basis of Conservative web posts, blogs and books?

I also asked him why a Leftist/Liberal would want to kill another Leftist/Liberal? Why would a Leftist/Liberal read conservative web sites/books/articles and then suddenly want to kill another Leftist/Liberal?

What am I missing?


I don't really think this kid has been reading a thing I've been saying. The proof of that is that somehow he thinks I'm an American!!
DOH!! Earlier in the exchange I said that it made sense to judge CNN from American standards since it IS an American network, and Americans think of CNN as being Left-wing. He took from that statement that I'm an American!

I honestly think these people don't read, OR THINK, they just react and post.


Is it time for me to realize there is no reasoning with Leftists/Liberals and just politely bow out of the conversation?
I think it's getting to the point wherein this kid is about to start the name-calling, he's already said things like "I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to you" and "You just don't get it"...so maybe so.

So sad.

 

[Fred]

I honestly think these people don't read, OR THINK, they just react and post.

This is true of almost all of American politics. The entire thing is based on, "no, you!" Look at the current situation -- both sides are bending over backwards to blame the other.

(this is where someone says, "That's right, Fred, but the [side that's not mine] is the worst!" or "That's wrong, Fred, it's just the [side that's not mine].")

 

[kozanne]

Sometimes I think people are so damn intellectually lazy that they just believe what the lamestreams tell them because then they don't have to do the work of thinking.

It reminds me of when we first passed SB 1070 here, and some numbnuts was twittering to boycott Arizona Iced Tea because it was 'racist'. The moonbat did not bother to put down the bong long enough to fact check his own statement, because Arizona Iced Tea is not made in Arizona!

But never let facts or the truth get in the way, just pick yourself up if you fall over them and go on like nothing happened.

ETA: I don't waste my time with them anymore; in fact, if they get in my face, I get in theirs, then I move on. The left can go pound sand, and stay the hell out of my way.

 

[SarahLynn]

This is true of almost all of American politics. The entire thing is based on, "no, you!" Look at the current situation -- both sides are bending over backwards to blame the other.

(this is where someone says, "That's right, Fred, but the [side that's not mine] is the worst!" or "That's wrong, Fred, it's just the [side that's not mine].")

Good point...I think it's not just American politics though, we have these same polarities in Canada, in the U.K., everywhere I guess. And it's not just the USA which assassinates leaders. That happens elsewhere too.

So how does one break past that? I've been VERY careful to try not to say the word "you." I've said, "Leftists/Liberals" say this or that. I've agreed that violence is wrong, no matter who says it. I can understand this kind of one-sided partisanship from a 20-something kid, but men like Paul Krugman and George Packer?

 

[BertaBurtonLake]

I have had a couple of dialogs like that on FB, too. My position in those was that no one or nothing was responsible for the shooter's actions but himself and he was crazy AND there was no association between campaign tactics commonly used by BOTH sides and the perp's actions. Some of the strings got very long...174 comments.

The responses were very telling. Some of them were:

"Yes, hate is hate and there is never a need to explore why it happens, is there? We live in an amazing world of amazing coincidences, where after two years of thinly veiled calls for violence against the federal government and the current administration -- which Glenn Beck assures me is like Hitler's -- and hundreds of Facebook posts talking about "watering the tree of liberty," etc., a Democratic congresswoman is shot! Amazing coincidence that the target of overheated rhetoric would also be the victim of a man consumed by hate, wouldn't you agree? And of course there is no need, none whatsoever, to delve into what motivated the shooter." (Left)

"I'm sorry but it was the uberconservatives who frequently invoke images of an armed revolution to take back their country. This was a shot fired in response to that" (Left)

"The ultra-conservatives are using the same tactics as Hitler which led to the genocide of 6 million jews, gays, gypsies and disabled people as the "good" people of Germen turned their backs." (Left)

"Jiminy Crickets!! Sometimes people are just outhouse rat crazy. To blame the Left or the Right for some schizo's actions is just nonsense, IMO. Not to mention the perp seems to be left leaning so it makes no sense that rhetoric from the Right would spark his actions." (Right)

"if you equate the left and right on this, you have totally lost any credibilty to talk about political matters. No leaders from our side have used the kind of overblown, violence-tinged rhetoric that comes from Beck, Palin and others. Did you see Palin's map? Anything like that on the left? Did you hear her say, "re-load?" Have you ever heard me or any other leaders on our side use that kind of language? Did you ever hear leftists call John Boehner a "traitor.? Or a leftist leader call him a "fascist?" " (Left)

"By the same logic I have seen being applied by many, not just here but at large, Jody Foster should be held responsible for the attempted assasination of Reagan and Jim Brady's injuries.
As for his political leanings, I don't know many Conservatives whose favorite reading material includes Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto.
My only real question is why is it anyone else's fault that some nutjob went postal? Everyone seems to want to assign blame where it does not belong. You all have obviously listened to Glenn Beck and know of Palin's "targeting" campaign. If they are so powerful as to incite actions such as this, why are you all not on the 11 'o'clock news, too??
The "Blame Game" is not productive for anything else except creating more dissention and division.
My heart goes out to the families of the dead and injured and I am keeping them in my prayers and thought. Peace, out." (Right)

"You cannot compare Jody Foster to Sarah Palin. You are mixing fiction with life, something that the Tea Party loves to do. The Tea Party loves the facts, they just hate the truth." (Left)

** These are just a few. As I said, there were some really long discussions.
Even if the Media 'tones down the rhetoric', obviously the citizenry is not.

 

[SarahLynn]

kozanne-so funny-I think some brains ARE fried! Certainly not thinking for themselves, as you said. Pointing out his inconsistencies is certainly not endearing myself to him!

 

[Seeker]

Perception" is all that matters. Its not what one actually does, only what they say about it.

 

[Hfcomms]

This is true of almost all of American politics. The entire thing is based on, "no, you!"

The one to 'blame' is the kid himself who did this. Nuts or not he was the one that took the action. So many are looking to place the blame but doesn't the blame belong on the perpetrator of a specific crime? Other than that I would place the blame on the Sheriff, his department and the local prosecutor's office who apparently had several actionable instances where death threats were made against various people in the local area along with testimony that this guy is a dangerous nut case and they did absolutely nothing about it. Mental illness or not making death threats is a crime that can get you serious jail time if not prison time. Perhaps locking him up on those charges would of given enough time for the mental health professionals to have become more involved. Very seldom does someone 'crack' without warning and in this case apparently everyone who knew that kid realized he was a walking timebomb.

 

[Fred]

So how does one break past that? I've been VERY careful to try not to say the word "you." I've said, "Leftists/Liberals" say this or that. I've agreed that violence is wrong, no matter who says it. I can understand this kind of one-sided partisanship from a 20-something kid, but men like Paul Krugman and George Packer?

Step one: don't listen to pundits. They're speaking in an echo chamber.

Another thing we all do is generalize. Did you know a huge number of left-leaning people love their guns just as much as those of us who lean right? Or that there are plenty of them who aren't happy with Obama right now? We like to put people in boxes, and make vast assumptions about them based on a single thing they believe.

It never hurts to try and understand what someone believes, and why. We all have more in common than we might think, and common ground is a good place to start in discussions. It's also possible to disagree without calling names. (not that I'm implying you do that)

 

[Border guard]

Remember John Lennon and President Reagan? Same deal here but we have politicians and extremists so willing to make a point off others' suffering that there seems to be some moral confusion. There is no confusion, the guy was MENTALLY ILL, the color red could have set him off but some in this country seem set on sending differing ideologies on a collision course to further their own agendas. If this country doesn't start pulling together for the COMMON GOOD, I give us six months at most. - BG

The one to 'blame' is the kid himself who did this. Nuts or not he was the one that took the action. So many are looking to place the blame but doesn't the blame belong on the perpetrator of a specific crime? Other than that I would place the blame on the Sheriff, his department and the local prosecutor's office who apparently had several actionable instances where death threats were made against various people in the local area along with testimony that this guy is a dangerous nut case and they did absolutely nothing about it. Mental illness or not making death threats is a crime that can get you serious jail time if not prison time. Perhaps locking him up on those charges would of given enough time for the mental health professionals to have become more involved. Very seldom does someone 'crack' without warning and in this case apparently everyone who knew that kid realized he was a walking timebomb.

 

[Southside]

One thing I have learned in life.

DO NOT ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT!

They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience!

AUnut

 

[Red Sky]

Unfortunately, mental health care seems hard to find. In our state, Governor Barbour wants to close down health care facilities. I don't understand how he thinks it will save money when you look at what happens, and what it costs society, when mentally ill people are on the streets.

SarahLynn, I don't think I would even argue about the Left or Right of this. It really is a mental health issue from what I understand. Mentally ill people can be influenced by anything, even a rock, if their mind is unstable.

 

[ltd]

Sometimes I think people are so damn intellectually lazy that they just believe what the lamestreams tell them because then they don't have to do the work of thinking.
It reminds me of when we first passed SB 1070 here, and some numbnuts was twittering to boycott Arizona Iced Tea because it was 'racist'. The moonbat did not bother to put down the bong long enough to fact check his own statement, because Arizona Iced Tea is not made in Arizona!

But never let facts or the truth get in the way, just pick yourself up if you fall over them and go on like nothing happened.

ETA: I don't waste my time with them anymore; in fact, if they get in my face, I get in theirs, then I move on. The left can go pound sand, and stay the hell out of my way.

Kozanne,

A few quotes appropriate to this thread and your reply:

“The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” John F. Kennedy

"Today Americans are ruled by propaganda. Americans have little regard for truth, little access to it, and little ability to recognize it. Truth is an unwelcome entity. It is disturbing. It is off limits. Those who speak it run the risk of being branded "anti-American," or "conspiracy theorist." Gerald Celente

 

[Border guard]

Same here. The state psychiatric hospital releases patients to half-way houses staffed by minimum wage workers. Makes you feel safe doesn't it? - BG

Unfortunately, mental health care seems hard to find. In our state, Governor Barbour wants to close down health care facilities. I don't understand how he thinks it will save money when you look at what happens, and what it costs society, when mentally ill people are on the streets.

SarahLynn, I don't think I would even argue about the Left or Right of this. It really is a mental health issue from what I understand. Mentally ill people can be influenced by anything, even a rock, if their mind is unstable.

 

[Perpetuity]

Step one: don't listen to pundits. They're speaking in an echo chamber.

Another thing we all do is generalize. Did you know a huge number of left-leaning people love their guns just as much as those of us who lean right? Or that there are plenty of them who aren't happy with Obama right now? We like to put people in boxes, and make vast assumptions about them based on a single thing they believe.

It never hurts to try and understand what someone believes, and why. We all have more in common than we might think, and common ground is a good place to start in discussions. It's also possible to disagree without calling names. (not that I'm implying you do that)

Fred, I agree with you for the most part. The nonsense coming from both sides is ear numbing, with MSM just being brain numbing at this point. The finger pointing is embarrassing to both "sides" of the argument and negates the tragedy that happened.

But I will wager that ear numbing pablum coming from both sides cements an "us vs. them" mentality irregardless of which political side insuring a continuation and a hard lining of political sides that both parties need. And I'll also wager that maintaining a two party system has, and will lead to the downfall of the US with MSM riding that pale horse into the ground. Think the Tea Party was going to be our guiding savior? Not after this political fiasco, with the Dems and Repubs coming out winners splitting the party up. We've been gamed by the left and right. The way I look at it, ANY politician that is using this tragedy to their political advantage needs out of office for showing their true colors.

Meanwhile, as a country we suffer. A new crisis to contend with, while the old crisis de jour simmers along without mention. And in the end, we all loose some freedom, a drop at a time until the container that holds it becomes empty and the politicians enjoy even more new found protections that sets "them" vs. "us".

ETA better late then never: As a cohesive country we've lost our sense of commonality by political shenanigans. You're either pro this, or anti that cause. Free thinking? That's outside of party (or group, forum, social club, etc.) lines. And we all know that you can't be a "true believer" without towing the official group thought. And pundits in an echo chamber? Isn't that just another name for a political recruiter?

 

[SarahLynn]

One thing I have learned in life.

DO NOT ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT!

They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience!

AUnut

Ahhhh ha I'm going to use that one sometime somewhere on someone...probably one of my unsuspecting kids...

 

[kjcap_777]

Remember John Lennon and President Reagan? Same deal here but we have politicians and extremists so willing to make a point off others' suffering that there seems to be some moral confusion. There is no confusion, the guy was MENTALLY ILL, the color red could have set him off but some in this country seem set on sending differing ideologies on a collision course to further their own agendas. If this country doesn't start pulling together for the COMMON GOOD, I give us six months at most. - BG

+1000

I am in one of the Southern States that received a fair amour of snow for the area. What is strange about this situation is that Unmarked are every where, and regular City Leo's are on the corners and the County is setting in store fronts, (Small Stores), as if "Setting On Go"

Most banks are CLOSED, and the ones that did open Yesterday, Closed around 2/3pm-Est

Now, I know the south kinda has a time getting around in the snow because it doesn't come every winter, but come on, NYC and the North are used to these weather occurrences. but do the NYC banks EVER close?

Strange to me, and I've been here for the better part of my entire life.
Peace and Blessings,
MCA

 

[Palmetto]

Sounds like casting pearls before swine.

"Answer a fool according to his folly and you will be like unto him."

You can't argue with idiots.

Palmetto

 

[Josie]

I once got into a "discussion" with an aquaintance of mine. Now, this guy is relatively intelligent and well educated but was/is a politcial brain dead zombie. We got into it about Obama before the 2008 election. He made the comment, "I'm voting for Obama because I want a smart president." Huh? I commented, very innocently, "Oh, he's finally released his transcripts from one or all of the schools he attended? That's great news!" He, "Well, no." Me, "So he's taken an IQ test and released those results?" He, "No." Me, "So how do you know he's all that smart?" He, "Well, he just sounds like it." Me, " So you have it on good authority that he writes what he reads off the teleprompters? That's cool 'cause not too many of our recent presidents write their own material!" He, "Well, I don't know about that but he makes me feel good about him." Me, "Most evil dictators in history did the same thing initially. I think even Satan will make you feel good until you sell your soul to him."

We can still get into it when we get together. I have to decide if it is worth the effort to try and move that brick wall or not. He has not changed his mind nor have I. All of my requests for proof of his statements lead me down some strange, convoluted rabbit hole that's his thought process and he never delivers. And it is a HUGE effort on my part not to break out in laughter!

I have to now question my own thought process in thinking of him as well educated because instead of doing the leg work in making an attempt to find facts, he's obviously just swollowed whatever was fed him by the MSM. He's got the alphabet behind his name but has (or maybe he always was) become very lazy intellectually. IMHO, THAT is the crux of the problem.

 

[SarahLynn]

Josie-I think that about sums up. "Intellectually lazy."
Just too easy for this young man I've been debating with to lay back and let all the Left/Liberal MSM nonsense wash over him. He drinks it in without ever challenging.
Best I can hope is that sometime, something sinks in and he comes to his senses...(II Timothy 2:26)

 

[Johnny Reb]

I've been having some great Facebook discussions lately. In fact, I've managed to get unfriended by at least 3 of my most liberal coworkers!

We should start a TB2K Facebook page and invite all the TTOL and Frugals folks over.

 

[lectrickitty]

For generations politicians have been using the "divide & conquer" system to keep the people from coming together against them. In recent years, they have seen people opening their eyes and discovering that there really is 2 parties, but it's not Dem vs Repub, it's politicians vs We The People.

The politicians (using the media they own) are pushing the division to keep We The People from laying aside our differences to form a united front against them. It's sad that the leftest liberals are eating up the misinformation and heating up what appears to be the Dem vs Repub fight (which is really the politicians vs We The People fight.)

A day will come when the liberals will open their eyes and see the truth, but by then, the damage will be irreparable.